The only reason anyone made defenseless accounts was to c h e a t the war matching system, and now you want special privileges because you chose to "game" the system for easier matchups?
If if you play with fire, expect to get burned.
Yes, sounds like it'll be good to have
Sorta, its okay, but not fully great
There's flaws in it and wouldn't benefit too much
No (Explain in comments)
The only reason anyone made defenseless accounts was to c h e a t the war matching system, and now you want special privileges because you chose to "game" the system for easier matchups?
If if you play with fire, expect to get burned.
Last edited by Xav1; December 4th, 2015 at 02:09 AM.
Originally Posted by RockTheRock
As you may know, war matchmaking is based on the amount of defenses, buildings or troops that you have. Defenseless bases, let's say, ch--t the system, they'll get matched to lower levels for easy three-stars, if they aren't in it for the loot.
You're meant to build stuff. You could say this for .5 bases too, but what I'm trying to say is:
People playing the game a certain way should not get better shield-giving conditions, it should be the same as everyone else. Supercell developed this new shield system in the upcoming update with bases that are truly built in mind, not as extreme as defenseless bases. So why should defenseless bases get shields easier than a TH4 whose base is maxed?
Last edited by XenonC0C18; December 4th, 2015 at 02:11 AM.
So your saying farmers should not get better conditions because its a different play style? And think of it this way, it only makes sense to get a shield no matter what if u were to get 100%'ed. Its crazy to be raided in and endless loop, seems like something SC wouldn't just let happen.
TH- 9 | LVL- 118| Clashing Since 2012
Clan Member of: TimeXTm Clan Tag:#8QQR2JLUWar Record: 125-8-1 (updated March 21st, 2016)
Defenseless Accounts Can Be Saved
Water ya on about mate? (JUST HAD TO DO THAT, sorry!)
What I am trying to say is, the shield system should be the same as everyone elses. Eg. Farmers should get 12h shield for everytime he gets rekt, trophy pusher should get 24h shield when he gets rekt. 👈 Shouldn't happen.
Why should it be different for others who play the game differently?
Pre-update, you can decide whether you want an easier shield or not by placing your TH outside or inside. The new update completely eliminates that.
I am sure Supercell may add something that can address this issue, but the change should affect all Townhalls playing in different ways, there should not be different shield conditions for others playing differently.
Last edited by XenonC0C18; December 4th, 2015 at 02:28 AM.
Okay, so now what about this.
How will defenseless bases get out of being defenseless if they are stuff at 400 trophies?
Ohh yeah... THEY WONT, meaning they WONT be able to do what they made that account for and they WONT be able to progress.
What will they do then u may ask? Its simple, they quit. Vanished, a source of income for SC not allowing a certain play style.
TH- 9 | LVL- 118| Clashing Since 2012
Clan Member of: TimeXTm Clan Tag:#8QQR2JLUWar Record: 125-8-1 (updated March 21st, 2016)
Defenseless Accounts Can Be Saved
They will just gem it of course! They are a source of income for SC too, but not as much as the trophy pushers! So if one or two of those defenseless bases quit, it won't have a significant effect because of the income they generate already.
I'm sure Supercell cares about how they want the people to play the game, instead of completely messing with the matchmaking system!
If they just implement a new feature that says, "Hey guyz defenseless bases will get 24h shield every time 50% of their base is rekt, and 100% will give them
48h shield!" It'll show that they're truly encouraging you to spend money and to play like that, which is weird ya know if there are a TON of defenseless bases out there. We legit people who play actual 100% wreck them, the defenseless players quit, less players playing = Downfall for the game (If defenseless players become common)
So one or two defenseless bases quitting is pretty much EVERY defenseless base? Makes sense.
Nor will it get popular as many people discourage this style of play (such as yourself)
And why would people spend hundreds of dollars when they could have done it for cheaper before the update? They wont stay, they will just flat out quit
TH- 9 | LVL- 118| Clashing Since 2012
Clan Member of: TimeXTm Clan Tag:#8QQR2JLUWar Record: 125-8-1 (updated March 21st, 2016)
Defenseless Accounts Can Be Saved
No no no, I'm saying that if a defenseless base or two quit, it won't have a significant effect on Supercell's income. There aren't many defenseless bases in clash to begin with, they're as rare as Shiny Pokemon.
I respect your opinion, but you know, there's a keyword playing like this.
"Defenseless"
They can't defend against anything because they don't have defenses! Defenseless bases defending defenses can't defend which makes them defenseless defenders defending!
They'll quit unless they push through the hardships brought upon themselves by playing this way.
Last edited by XenonC0C18; December 4th, 2015 at 02:55 AM.
Full disclosure: I have a couple of defenseless accounts in a defenseless only clan. Wars in defenseless only clans are won only because the other clan decides not to attack; usually our #1 and #2 is 3 starred by their #14 or #20. We've never entered a war that the other side couldn't get 100% on us.
You talk about this as if SuperCell is stuck with the War Matching algorithm they have rather than a software company free to change anything they want about the algorithm. Shields are not the right way to keep defenselessness accounts from screwing up wars, and in fact this was mostly fixed in the Sept 2015 update.
War Weights, circa 2014
When wars were first introduced it didn't take long before players realized that the loot bonus was directly proportional to a player's defensive upgrades and troop research. So how were war matches made? Each defensive building and each troop level was assigned a point value; these points were added up to calculate a player weight. The geometric mean of all of the players in the clan was calculated to get the mean clan weight. This mean clan weight was compared and clans with the same or really close mean clan weight were matched up.
This was so well know people hosted tournaments and civil wars, constructing clans with participating players of known weights so they could build 2 clans with identical mean clan weights. It was crazy times.
Fall 2014 Update
In this update the player weights were decoupled from the loot bonus. Since this update, it is no longer possible to know the exact number that's used to calculate someone's weight for the war match, so mean clan weights could no longer be predicted with absolute certainty. Civil wars were still possible, but we could now only estimate based on the loot bonus and so war searches sometimes found other clans. But the overall problem wasn't solved and after several months of making spreadsheets and calculating statistics, pretty much everyone agreed SuperCell was still using the geometric mean of everyone's individual weight. And that's a problem
The trouble with geometric mean
Most of us are familiar with arithmetic mean: sum the numbers and then divide by the number of numbers. This gives you the value in the exact middle of the group Add a small number and the arithmetic mean shifts down, add a big number and the arithmetic mean shifts up.
In geometric mean you multiply all the numbers together and then take the n-th root (where n is the number of numbers). So for 1,5 the geometric mean is (1 x 5)^(1/2) = 2.23. There's many reasons geometric mean is good and it's no surprise SuperCell chose this, but a fault with geometric mean is that it disproportionately weights small numbers. Add a big number and the geometric mean shifts up a little, add a small number and the geometric mean shifts down a lot. Use of geometric mean is why clans with a bunch of small TH3 and TH4 at the bottom or a bunch of defenseless players more often got favorable mismatches.
Sept 2015 Update
The most recent update changed something in the war matchmaking algorithm, though it's not yet (and might not ever be) clear what changed, though what is clear is that SuperCell is doing something other than simply geometric mean. Clans that were using small TH3 and TH4 accounts as well as defenseless are no longer getting easy wars. All defenseless clans who used to get a war match in 7-8 hours are now going the full cycle of 24 hours without finding a war. If you didn't know, the war search cancels itself after 24 hours. My defenseless clans take an average of 5 days to find wars and one of them took 14.
What is SuperCell doing now? We can only guess. If I were going to tackle the mismatch problem the three obvious solutions to me would be
- calculate mean defensive weight and mean offensive weight separately and only match a clan if both offensive and defensive score are similar. Combining 2 very different things (offense and defense) into 1 number clearly wasn't working, so why not 2 numbers?
- Set a minimum player weight based on offensive weight. A TH10 with max troops should never weigh less than a TH9.
- ban defenseless players from wars If a player is Th6 or higher and has no defenses, mark him as ineligible for war.
Even without wars, defenseless play is fun!
I still remember the day in Nov 2013 when I encountered my first defenseless player. My little TH7 face was just a beam as I giddily attacked with my barb king and a few archers, gaining something like 200k elixir and 200k gold and able to attack again in just a few minutes. I shared the replay with my clan, we laughed at the "noob" player, and I went to bed, only to wake to find that "noob" had 3 starred me in revenge, taking as much from me as I got from him! I starred at my phone in shock and then laughed. That's when I created my first defenseless account, a full 6mo before clan wars were even added to clash of clans.
Every time I get raided I know I'm making someone's day just like that player in Nov 2013 made my day. And on the rare chance I have to revenge someone, I get to teach them that, "no, defenseless players aren't noobs, we just have different goals."
I'd be perfectly fine if SuperCell went back and adjusted the clan wars to prohibit defenseless players. I think most of my defenseless clans would disband; for many of them the funny wars is most of the fun. But I've been defenseless long before wars and if possible I'd continue even without wars.
Shield change does nothing to fix wars
If you're on your first account, completing TH6 was probably a huge drag. But if you're on your second or third account then you probably know that filling a TH6's storages to max in 3 hours of play is easy. Filling a TH7s gold/elixir storages with 5 hours of play and boosted barracks is probably doable. In 2013 Clash with Cam and Daddy both posted youtube videos showing how to get barbarian king in an afternoon (one of the videos was "get your barbarian king in 4 hours), so even getting BK5 after the update probably isn't a big deal.
But advancing beyond TH7 will surely be hard. So, one might look at this and say, "finally, the scourge of the defenseless players is over! hahaha" but that's wrong.
My defenseless TH9 has drag4, queen5, and bk10. I can destroy any max TH8. While getting enough loot for future upgrades might be hard, getting enough to build a war army and attack won't be any big deal. Anyone who currently wars with a defenseless account shouldn't have any trouble continuing to do so; they'll just stagnate.
Supercell isn't dumb
The only way to fix wars with regards to defenseless is through adjustments of the war algorithm as explained above. And SuperCell knows this; they made changes in Sept 2015 to address this and they'll surely make more tweaks in the future.
Same rules for everyone
Well that's easy; they shouldn't! Everyone should have the same shield rules and a TH4 who gets starred by a small army should also get a shield. We have a mercy rule for personal break (3 defenses without a shield resets the personal break), a mercy rule for shields also makes sense. Whether that's 100% always results in a shield, 3rd 90% defense results in a shield, or whatever doesn't matter. There should be no special rules that only apply to some players and the shield rules shouldn't all
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