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Thread: [Discussion] LaLoon Defense

  1. #41
    Forum Superstar Avernicus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheJ View Post
    Just going to put this back up. Anyone had any success using these theories?
    Definitely success with Karas.

  2. #42
    Senior Member TheLegendd's Avatar
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  4. #44
    Super Member akiyume's Avatar
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    An interesting conceptual talk with a fellow base builder, edgolfer, with his permission to post the conversation. It brought out important points and things made things alittle more clear to me. Italics is his post, normal is my response.

    There will be more coming.


    I agree that having 2 DGBs is bad in terms of spell placement because the attacker can essentially use 2 spells (jump for KS and heal to trigger 2nd DGB 1x1) to negate both DGBs.

    When I thinking about it, the only reason why two double giant bombs are needed is because the base designs these days are too tightly made, making is so that a spell can easily cover 5-6 defenses in one go, and that's literally 1/4 the base. A hog will only need to travel 2-3 tiles, then 1 tile, then another 2 tiles in order to clear all defenses in the given section of the base, completed within 9-10sec/12 second heal spell and move on.

    This was thinking I was thinking about really throughly when i was doing my metaki #6. As I was making my base wider and wider, I noticed that the defenses naturally made it so that they waste spells and outside the usual range and coverage of a heal, and they would have to invest in a heal way earlier than usual.

    If you look at this image for example (taking from my experimental metaki #7:


    From the cannon to the left, to the tesla to the right a heal spell cannot cover everything. Let's pretend the hogs are invincible (from the heals) and there are no spring traps. Hogging from the left cannon, moving to the wizard tower

    Scenario1: then it's could be the uncertain tesla above, then to the archer tower above
    Scenario 2: from the wiz to the tesla above, to the archT centered, to the tesla
    Scenario 3: from the wiz to split into two groups against the tesla/archt, meet up on the mortar.

    This are just the small limitless possibly of just this spuratic set up. Check out this post for a sec [Here], where I highlighted some points. Basically if this was even two packs of loons, they will have to meet up sooner or later within 3-4 defense buildings, then have to kill the 5th, 6th defense as a pack. The fact that this set up's location isn't even protecting 1/4 the base but would probably require 2 heals to cover makes wide bases alittle better.





    One theory that I've thought of and haven't really been able to test enough is a base with 4 single giant bombs and quad or triple teslas. If you've ever dealt with quad teslas you'll probably know that even with a heal, a handful of hogs will still die. So in theory, I think a base with 3+ teslas close together, 4 single bombs, well-placed springs and with a centralized AQ would be tough to hog.

    Have you thought about building a base like this?

    To be honest, I find Teslas have the biggest game changing potential in the whole base building path, but I also find that we aren't really using it properly. I feel like the answer towards make a good base is making it so that teslas are not used as normal defense building, but takes advantage of the fact that it has the smallest space and can be put anywhere, as well as the fact that it can aggro hogs.

    I did glimpse that concept before, but in my book when it comes to teslas is NEVER have more than 2 within enemy AI's reach with each other. Havnig 3 teslas yes, could increase damage by alot, but at the same time, you got to remember they are really brittle and their radius is small so you put them closer together. Having 3 close together means they will get killed by a stronger pack more quicker. Having an invincible army smash 3 teslas, or having a few loon packs raged right thru the teslas as they only pull off 2 shots each is the price of trying this combination and I don't feel like it's worth investing in. BUT, giving it a secondary purpose like you side, against golems would give it another better value towards it's dps side. But doing this would almost guarantee at least two teslas or more be one shot by the enemy queen and the the base loses the extra buildings and dps against lavaloon part of the attack. I'll discuss in the next para.






    I think teslas are probably the 3rd best defense against laloon behind ADs and WTs

    I find Air defense are the least best defense against laloon since the main threat ISN'T the lava part, but the loon part of the attack. Air defense contribute literally almost no attacks against a decently done lavaloon, and you always seem to find it's the clutch teslas, or a wizard tower killing off alot of the pack of loons. Teslas have the potential for dps, but also serves as an extra building and step to conquer (my current path). Of course this makes it really brittle if the things get targetted. So maximizing the fact that you can isolate wizard towers and teslas away from the lavas, it could actually serve a better chance of beating the lava.

    Check this attack against my #7 for a sec (sorry for poor quality, wanted to get the point across).

    https://youtu.be/g7_HxzCBpAY

    Even though the attacker sucked, you can see that because of the W shaped defenses that zig zag and 'tempt' the loons to go out of the lava's protection, they get easily targetted. All 4 of my SAMs are located in a curve around the bottom left side, and this person was using lv1 hounds, so even near the end, you can see that at least 2 hounds survived, but making the base wider, isolating the wizard towers and teslas (not saying this base is good, having these singled out buildings), and making them form another 'island' away from the hound would make the base better.

    My path anyways, towards taking the next steps to anti-lavaloon, is to isolate the lavas and the AD into their own world and have them battle it out which always ends up AD losing anyways,

    but the main way of winning against lavaloons other than the queen killing part, is to isolate the loon part better, and mess up their pathing, or destroy sections of them. If a They did a clock work 1 > 2 > 3 but then #2 section survived, the loons that were on #1 and #3 would have to head back into the 2 section so 1 1 > 2 < 3. Teslas and wizard towers along with how the base is layed out to protect the teslas and the wizard would be the best opinion. I sorta felt like I touch this part abit in my Metaki #5, but I think having 2 teslas and 1 wizard tower, but also a distraction building in front would be the most deadly's combo. This also could work with the "single giant bomb" combination as well.






    you don't necessarily want to stack them all together because their pathing ability and DPS can be useful elsewhere. What I just said about it being where the queen kill side is ^.



    If you have 2 defenses right next to each other, a bomb drop from the correct angle can take both of them out at once.

    Which is why I'm trying to spread my base out in a way to mess with pathing and clump them better.




    Personally, I believe golaloon strives on some bases because of the lack of DPS hitting the golem/BK/AQ. 2-3 point defenses is not nearly enough to stop a CB or shattered laloon because it's just too little DPS. Even if you have 9 storages in front of your AD, but no DPS in range of the AQ, the attacker could still snipe your AD. I know this would take a lot of time, but you get the idea; there's no DPS to kill the AQ from sniping the AD. To combat this, I thought about using 3 or 4 teslas near my most exposed AD by my AQ to quickly kill the golem and ground units that the attacker would bring and possibly even setting an xbow on ground. Ideally this would make a ground portion of a golaloon from that direction extremely difficult causing the attacker to make a larger investment or approach from somewhere else. I think it's much easier to defend golaloon if you can defend the ground portion of the attack, because even with tough pathing and air mines stacked on opposite ADs, it's still really tough to stop the air portion if the ground attack goes as planned. I learned this from the CH vs TRL war and from watching some attacks on your metaki bases.

    Halt for a sec, If you haven't seen it yet, read up my anti-lavaloon concept page in my website. To start off, I'm just heading a different path when it comes to making a base anti-lavaloon, making it against the loon part instead of the lava part, the reason why is because explained in the "Steps" all the bases I've seen up until now are so tightly knit together, legit, after reaching the junk to the point defenses, it only takes 3 tiles at most to reach the second defense, and just another 1-2 tile to reach Air Defense. This is the same characteristics that I see in my clan's base, in all the anti-3 star bases. It's too squared within a square so my approach is to skewer that typical square and through making the square wider in some areas, concentrated in others, I can control where the dps is, where the loons will be slower, and where the pathing would be better. This I'm still working on, hence the ovaki shaped base/wide shape Not the best because everything is just wide, but I've been pondering on this look:


    Taken from Onehive's how to build antilavaloon, the reason why in this base they've shown, this set up isn't effect is because the wizards can be targetted as well as the fact that wizard towers have no chances of killing the loons as they come, only injurying them. But this set up is almost too excellent if you move them alittle more part. Also the fact that if you add some teslas close by the wizard tower, No matter which direction the loons come from, as long as it's not from the beginning, this set up is loon's worse nightmare.


    So with this in mind, I WANT them to aim for my queen kill and 4th AD.since I know it'll be coming. I can make things more difficult for them during the queen killing like you said but through making some compacted, some wide areas, controlling the flow of loons, is what I feel like is the next step. The wizard towers and teslas can move, outside the range of the AD, their potential is limitless. The air defense is trapped in a struggle against lava no matter where you put it, also the Queen + 4th AD is the same case, where their weakness is their range. It's just whether or not you can lower the impact and force the enemy to waste resource enough against your queen and ADs. Rather than wasting resource stopping the impossible, from happening if queen Kill is super strong and they will get the AD sooner or later, best thing to do is let it happen, but minimize the impact and deal with the lavaloon part of the raid.


    This is where I feel like I'm more different compared to the current trending anti-lavaloon bases due to how weak the base is against the loons. So to address your points below :P. They are all valid btw, but Queen defending isn't too interesting/ not my biggest strength to be honest, I suck at protecting my queen. But I rather invest thinking of protecting that 70% against loons, than trying to protect that 30% queen.

    Here's a portion of my war base. This part of the base is the part that the attacker would likely CB or shatter from because its the most accessible AD and also reasonably close to the AQ. At first glance it appears manageable because only 2 archer towers and a cannon will deal DPS. However once the attacker gets into the compartment, he'd be greeted with 3 teslas which would likely be unexpected on the first attack. I'd like to think that my single bombs, teslas, storages, CC, BK, AQ would be enough to hold off the attacker from pulling off a successful CB attack from that direction, but I haven't had enough people try it. I even thought about putting an xbow set to ground on the side of the base you'd expect a CB or shattered attack, because the attacker would likely kill the xbow regardless. Getting that DPS out earlier on the golem would definitely help. Of course, your base needs to have good pathing to defend penta or quad laloon if you have an xbow down.



    I really like having 3 teslas like this for a few reasons. For one, 3x87= 261 DPS, that's nearly a 2nd lvl 7 AD. This DPS helps a lot against hogs, golems, hounds, and kills pups before the air bombs can even explode on them. More importantly, the teslas also serve great purpose for pathing as they cause loons to circle around the wiz tower while the stop every couple seconds to drop bombs on the teslas as the hounds fly away.
    Last edited by akiyume; April 25th, 2015 at 05:37 AM.

  5. #45
    Super Member akiyume's Avatar
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    His response afterwards:
    Wow, thanks for the in-depth reply.

    With the hogs, I definitely agree with you that bases are so compact that a single heal can usually cover 4 defenses minimum on any base. On compact bases hogs just shred through the base because they're almost always in heal the entire raid. The only issue I see with spread out bases is that with all the DPS being spread out, sometimes the attacker won't have to heal until 10-15 seconds after the hogs first started attacking defenses. So even though the heals cover fewer defenses, the attacker can kill the defenses without a spell and still have more hogs left over since there's less DPS hitting them. That being said, one well placed DGB can ruin everything so really designing a good DGB location should be prioritized; something I've been putting on the back burner.

    As far as teslas go, it seems like everyone's opinion differs, but I totally agree with everything you said. While they deal out fast DPS, many people fail to use their 'surprise' to their advantage and easily give them away while scouting their war base. Personally I wasn't sure if their DPS outweighed their ability to skew pathing and stun troops, but you're correct saying how 'brittle' they are. An AQ behind a golem can definitely tear through them quickly.

    I like how you break bases down into sections and personally that's something I don't really think about when scouting a base. Your graphics definitely make it easier to visualize, which puts you a step ahead over everyone else. I spoke with some other base designers before you and they all had varying opinions on anti-laloon concepts, so I really had the mindset of 'kill the hound as fast as possible so the AD can shoot the loons'. While this makes sense, it's not really possible because 'the hound always wins'.

    I've been trying to build bases that make the ground portion of golaloon incredibly difficult by keeping my DPS relatively close together. I still believe it's much easier to defend golaloon if the ground portion fails, the issue is...it's extremely hard to defend the ground portion! The attacker can almost always take out an AD with a golem and heros if he really wants too, so you may as well only give him one option as you said. Since all of these concepts aren't really well-known yet and still in trial phases, I haven't really seen bases that 'give up' an AD and AQ, but defends the air portion well. I've seen some of Godii's videos and concepts with 3 AD on one side, and AQ + AD on other side, but haven't actually seen how it defends against a CB Golaloon raid that goes for the AQ & AD.

    So it sounds like you definitely think you can 'sell' the attacker a CB golaloon by giving up a manageable AD and AQ. I've thought about doing this, but have never really understand how to defend the air portion since I was accustomed to building more compact bases in which the hounds tank nearly all air defenses.

    Do you think it's possible to 'trick' or 'sell' the attacker into doing a shattered golaloon and giving him 2 AD and AQ, but have the rest of the base set up incredibly well to kill loons?

    Secondly, I couldn't find anywhere your opinion on the SAMs. Since you believe it's better to prioritize killing the loons, do you think it's better to try and have 4 air mines take out 4 loons?

    The last question I have is this. If you decide to let the hound live and focus on killing loons. If the attacker traded out 1 or even 2 hounds for extra loons, how big of an impact do you think it would make?

    I'm definitely guilty of the 'square' anti-3 star bases and having them somewhat compact, but I feel like the pathing and WT placement is well-done on the base with all arrows drawn on it. The other base is something abnormal I drew together in a couple hours with the idea of giving up 1 AD + AQ at most. I've been kind of skeptical and haven't tried it out since I've spent so much time designing the other one that want to test it out the most lol. Anyway here are a couple of the 'better' bases I think I've come up with. BASE OMITTED FOR PRIVACY

    Last edited by akiyume; April 24th, 2015 at 06:53 PM.

  6. #46
    Super Member akiyume's Avatar
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    Sorry if the info isn't clear or seem shorter... I wrote a super in-depth response but then my token/session for the mail expired so everything got deleted... now i have to retype all of what I wrote again....


    .

    With the hogs, I definitely agree ...(cut)...good DGB location should be prioritized; something I've been putting on the back burner.

    Yup, you covered what I have said.


    As far as teslas go, it seems like everyone's opinion differs, but I totally agree with everything you said. While they deal out fast DPS, many people fail to use their 'surprise' to their advantage and easily give them away while scouting their war base.

    The thing with tesla is I treat it as a defense building as a separate 'unit' not just for dps. I think of my base as already been scouted and all the traps known (debatable, but not going to talk about it here), but what I see from what other people do is that teslas are just dps-ers and they aren't fully embracing the fact that it's a target and building. For example:



    A base like this has only 3 'units' the cannon archer, the wizard tower/tesla, and the Air Defense. In this case, a rage can instantly make it so the loons head from wizard to Tesla in a heartbeat and thus negating it's effect as a defense target. In this case, it's only just 2 steps at most to reach the air defense, and it's not really the base scenario.

    What I try to do for example:



    Is make it so that each 'unit' has it's own pacing which loons have to target. The tesla on the outside for example, takes advantage of the fact that it's a defensive building, so you can't ignore it. Almost like saying "so what if I'm exposed? You must get me, since I count". The cannon forms it's own unit, the wizard tower and tesla in the section forms a 1.5 unit since the wall separate them, and the archer tower and mortar forms the second unit. In this case, there are 3.5 units involved not including the the AD which is far behind. Compared to the first example, this second example takes the fact that teslas are buildings and make it so that there as an extra 1.5 unit added to the count, compared to the 2-3 unit in the first example.
    Last edited by akiyume; April 27th, 2015 at 12:49 AM.

  7. #47
    Super Member akiyume's Avatar
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    I like how you break bases down into sections and personally that's something I don't really think about when scouting a base. Your graphics definitely make it easier to visualize, which puts you a step ahead over everyone else. I spoke with some other base designers before you and they all had varying opinions on anti-laloon concepts, so I really had the mindset of 'kill the hound as fast as possible so the AD can shoot the loons'. While this makes sense, it's not really possible because 'the hound always wins'.

    Thanks, I have a super high visual spacial mind so makes it more easy to map out and create the images in sections. And yes, hounds would always win due to the fact that hounds outnumber AD by one.

    -cut out a part here- I basically agree with you wrote.

    So it sounds like you definitely think you can 'sell' the attacker a CB golaloon by giving up a manageable AD and AQ. I've thought about doing this, but have never really understand how to defend the air portion since I was accustomed to building more compact bases in which the hounds tank nearly all air defenses.

    Do you think it's possible to 'trick' or 'sell' the attacker into doing a shattered golaloon and giving him 2 AD and AQ, but have the rest of the base set up incredibly well to kill loons?


    I just thought about what you just said, but the answer is NO, you MUST not allow them to shattered. The reason why is because through the action of Cold blooded queen kill, the enemy heroes will no doubt kill avg-25% of the base. If you look at this image for example:



    The enemy takes out 25% of the base along with the 4th AD, and the Queen. A typical compacted squared anti-3 star base would look like this, and since they have 2 spells left, the enemy can drop the rage and take over about 45-55% out of the 75% remaining defense surface area. This is the reason why anti-3 stars bases are vulnerable to loons because the travel time is short, and the rage has coverage.

    But if you look at my Oval shaped ovaki for example,



    I'm forcing them to only take 20% of the base (including the town hall)if possible. Let's say they still took 25% of the base, leaving 75% of the oval remaining. But if you look at my oval shaped, the surface area which it covers is vastly bigger than the typical square shaped base. With this in mind, even if they dropped 2 heals, at most it will only cover 35-45% of the remaining 75% surface area. This 75-80% area is wider, allows the wizard tower more attempts at splashing at the loons as well as the fact that rage can't cover everything.

    Back to the main topic, if the enemy for example does a shattered that means that the 20-25% will not for sure be about 25-35% of the base. The typical Anti-3 star squared shaped bases will now get hit harder by the rage and the loons. With just 65% of the base remaining, there is a limit to how far I can stretch out my base design, so the rage will still cover the same amount of 35-45% of the base, but with only 65% of the base being under rage, it's just impossible to build any areas in a 65% zone (only 20% safe), where it can not be under rage.

    So to conclude that topic, no, the exchange of just 1 golem is not worth the risk of giving away 10% of your base. This 10%/15% is a vital space needed to put the wizard towers and defenses in areas which the 2 rages cannot touch. Must make it only CBed, Shattered is not a viable exchange.

  8. #48
    Super Member akiyume's Avatar
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    Sorry for part 5, i wrote heal instead of rage in a part, also the oval shape i drew is smaller than how my ovaki really is, but you get my example :P



    Secondly, I couldn't find anywhere your opinion on the SAMs. Since you believe it's better to prioritize killing the loons, do you think it's better to try and have 4 air mines take out 4 loons?

    Well I haven't really thought of the SAMs as much since the fact that still followed the "double seekings against lava" theory until I tried experimenting with M#7, and you asking me about it also the replayed showed me more clearly. But I do feel like having SAMs taking out loons could be beneficial. But if you put all the seekings outside the range though (like you said in the next part) they could easily just bring one less hound. Which is why you must situate the seekings in between the secondary layer of wizard tower for example, and maybe along the road towards AD. The lavas might not trip the seekings but the seeking will for sure either target the lava or kill a loon somewhere.


    The last question I have is this. If you decide to let the hound live and focus on killing loons. If the attacker traded out 1 or even 2 hounds for extra loons, how big of an impact do you think it would make?

    Actually that is a perfect way for the enemy to counter this set up if they tried to use seeking vs loons, since then the seekings would be negated by the amount of loons, and the hounds would still survive against the same amount of ADs. I sort of thought of this is the answer is to make it so that the 'wizard vs loon' killing side has the same amount of threat as an AD, and would be considered a "4th" influence against lavaloon. To understand, look at the image for example:



    I've already marked 25% of the base +1 AD + Queen gone to the heroes, don't mind the proportions, and made some make shift 'layer'

    But what this is, is the fact that the two top ADs are paired and the central AD cannot be targetted, and the "Isolated Wizard towers" are paired.

    So now instead of the usual 15-18 (let's say 18) and 4 lavas vs 3 ADs, they now bring 24 Loons and 3 Lavas.



    If you go at this approach, they would no doubt be able to kill the first two AD, but the right side since it has two seekings (could be all 4 or 3, experiment i guess...), would eliminate 2 out of the 6 loons instantly, so now there are only 4 loons left, in scattered clumps. If you count how others moved closer to it, that means roughly about 6-9 loons will no doubt get killed by this isolated wizard combination, in exchange, they would have taken a cannon and the archer tower in the outside later.



    If the lavas survive, to the third AD, no doubt the third AD would be at risk, but since the fact that "isolated Wizard tower" area is not in contact with this AD, the lavas have no influence anymore, and the loons will have to travel to the Wizard towers unprotected.

    If they tried to lava the wizard tower area from the beginning, the seekings would lock onto the hound and get nuked, but the wizard tower is still isolated from the ADs so they can still shot at the loons. If they do manage to kill this wizard influence though, but that will mean the third AD at the center has more chances of surviving.

    Just a prototype idea right now.



    I'm definitely guilty of the 'square' anti-3 star bases and having them somewhat compact, but I feel like the pathing and WT placement is well-done on the base with all arrows drawn on it. The other base is something abnormal I drew together in a couple hours with the idea of giving up 1 AD + AQ at most. I've been kind of skeptical and haven't tried it out since I've spent so much time designing the other one that want to test it out the most lol. Anyway here are a couple of the 'better' bases I think I've come up with. BASE OMITTED

    That's almost like what I'm saying for the prototype, but if you switch the queen to the other side, with the two ADs, that will make it work i think . Let me see if I can expand that base better. Thanks for communicating with me, the more questions, the more better we go into tackling an anti-lavaloon base.
    Last edited by akiyume; April 25th, 2015 at 08:57 AM.

  9. #49
    Senior Member TheLegendd's Avatar
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    amazing job aki like always !! your clan is lucky to have u
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  10. #50
    Forum Superstar Ytiev's Avatar
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    bump and an update please?

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