Please Nurf the dragons

[Xitra]

I have a longer argument saying that lvl2 dragons should not be nerfed at all, since they are a transition level between late stage TH7 and Early Stage TH8. If they are nerfed to only be inline with TH7 strength bases, TH8s would be robbed of a viable unit until they level up to 3.

And yeah, I'm saying as well to just do some research on it. There should be plenty of content. Granted some or most of it is biased and frivolous, but if you take it in as a whole, and average things out, you'll likely get your answer.

I somewhat disagree with this last statement. With few exceptions, TH7 and TH8 players complain that dragons are OP. TH9 and TH10 players (and a few mid-late TH8 players) say that dragons are too weak to be useful. When the disagreements between these two perspective come to a head, the TH9-TH10 players will suggest one of two things (some variation on the themes list below):
1. Buff up your aerial defense (level up AD's, protect them with storages, spread out base a little, etc.)
2. Upgrade your TH, because no one cares that dragons are OP at TH7.

Neither suggestion is particularly helpful (#1 doesn't help TH7, and #2 is just being crass), and they don't address the issue of dragons being OP at TH7 and early TH8.

If you look at both sides (overpowered, underpowered), the average point of view is that they're fine as they are. But they're not. The average dragon stats are fine across an average of the town hall levels. But level 1 is OP at early TH8 (let alone TH7), and level 4 is UP at TH9 (let alone TH10).

It'd be like if level 1 archers had the stats of level 3, and level 7 had the stats of level 5. Sure, on average, they'd be fine. But they'd be extremely OP at low TH levels (who cares?), and completely underpowered at high TH levels (people would stop using them, or at least use a lot fewer). But they're fine on average, right?

The "correct" conclusion should be to nerf level 1 and buff level 4. I used to get flak for the suggestion when it came up a month or two ago. People have been more open to it lately, or less against it is probably a better way of putting it.

And as you point out, level 2 dragons are a transition unit, OP for TH7 but useful for early TH8, so balancing them is a little more complicated. I'm fine with them staying as is. I'd be fine with a slight nerf.

[WarrenJames]

The last comment was a simplification. Going into detail, like what you did , would have been longer than I would have had time to type up right then, or care to retype in my own words and point of view.

Much of the 'Dragons are OP' issue is the defences themselves. The generically named, and awkward to talk about because it references a concept as well, Air Defence building I personally think is the main issue. It feels like a bandaid fix to the whole otherwise OP air units. You have a hyper specialized, high DSP, few in number, structure, which devolves combat almost back into 'Destroy the Most Important Building to press Win Button' that you used to run into when in the much lower Town Hall levels with your Mortars and Wizard Towers.

If you are a TH6 or TH7 and 'make the mistake' of upgrading your Air Defence, which takes a long time to get back up and going again, you are all but advertising that you want air units to raid you. Verse other Town Halls of the same level, taking down one Air Defence building, hurts your air cover strength significantly, allowing them to take advantage of that sickeningly long window of vulnerability with giant/healer raids, or as a TH7, a modestly strong dragon raid. or minion rushes. And that is verse same level Town Halls, to say nothing of higher level ones. This is why Dragons seem so OP, taking out one Air Defence tower takes out a huge chunk of one's air defences. (see, awkward to talk about)

You just cannot upgrade those things in a way to keep from being overly exposed. Now, with the extra Mortars and Wizard Towers, and of course many Cannons and Archer Towers, I can cycle through those and upgrade them without leaving too huge a gap in defences. But even at TH8, upgrading an Air Defence is still opening one up to air attack, as if you were a newbie player back in TH4 or TH5 with your first Mortar or Wizard Tower. (I Would know. As a TH7, I revenge attacked so many TH8s that were upgrading thier Air Defence, and got a lot of loot from thier 'mistake' of dropping thier guard )

[Xitra]

The last comment was a simplification. Going into detail, like what you did , would have been longer than I would have had time to type up right then, or care to retype in my own words and point of view.

Much of the 'Dragons are OP' issue is the defences themselves. The generically named, and awkward to talk about because it references a concept as well, Air Defence building I personally think is the main issue. It feels like a bandaid fix to the whole otherwise OP air units. You have a hyper specialized, high DSP, few in number, structure, which devolves combat almost back into 'Destroy the Most Important Building to press Win Button' that you used to run into when in the much lower Town Hall levels with your Mortars and Wizard Towers.

If you are a TH6 or TH7 and 'make the mistake' of upgrading your Air Defence, which takes a long time to get back up and going again, you are all but advertising that you want air units to raid you. Verse other Town Halls of the same level, taking down one Air Defence building, hurts your air cover strength significantly, allowing them to take advantage of that sickeningly long window of vulnerability with giant/healer raids, or as a TH7, a modestly strong dragon raid. or minion rushes. And that is verse same level Town Halls, to say nothing of higher level ones. This is why Dragons seem so OP, taking out one Air Defence tower takes out a huge chunk of one's air defences. (see, awkward to talk about)

You just cannot upgrade those things in a way to keep from being overly exposed. Now, with the extra Mortars and Wizard Towers, and of course many Cannons and Archer Towers, I can cycle through those and upgrade them without leaving too huge a gap in defences. But even at TH8, upgrading an Air Defence is still opening one up to air attack, as if you were a newbie player back in TH4 or TH5 with your first Mortar or Wizard Tower. (I Would know. As a TH7, I revenge attacked so many TH8s that were upgrading thier Air Defence, and got a lot of loot from thier 'mistake' of dropping thier guard )

Haha, yeah, didn't want to get into the whole issue of aerial defense* versus ground defense. A lot of suggestions for solving the mass dragon problem at TH7 involve adding aerial defenses, either a second AD, or a second SAM, making air bombs do extra damage to dragons (like giant bombs for hogs), etc. The problem is, those solutions affect all air attacks, not just mass dragons. I would prefer to address the issue of mass dragons at TH7 directly, rather than fiddle with the whole aerial defense balance.

Consider that balloons are available from TH4 to TH10, upgrades at levels 4, 6, 7, 8, and 9. At TH4, balloons are reasonably strong, even if the defender has an AD, because very few players centralize the AD. It's usually a centralized mortar, with the AD accessible to archers and/or giants (or hogs from CC).

But I didn't have much experience with balloons back then, mostly because I never had pockets deep enough to use them except in war. And even then, I only used balloons at TH4 to punish TH5's and TH6's who left their AD outside their base, or worse, didn't even have one. Who has a TH6 with level 2 wizard towers and doesn't have an AD? I mean, level 1 is only 22,500 gold and 5 hours, if I remember correctly. That alone would have scared my TH4 balloons away, as long as it wasn't sitting outside the walls. Anyway...

At TH9, balloons are borederline OP (in the sense that the same balloons are used extensively at TH10 with much success). But level 3-5 balloons are somewhat underpowered at the levels they are unlocked at. Well, I just got level 5 balloons at TH8, and they pair well with dragons. Haven't tried loonion yet, but I'm curious to see how they do. But they still get taken down pretty quickly by AD's and wizards.

Balloons manage to be borderline OP at the extremes (borderline OP = used extensively and just accepted as the way things are), while being UP in between, because the stats are spread so much.

Dragons are very different ("insanely OP" at TH7, basically useless at TH10) because they have stats too close together. Spread the stats, and you can mitigate a lot of the problem, without having to restructure the whole aerial defense* problem.

PS: I know what you mean about the "Win Button". At TH7, 3x lightning an AD and you win. At TH6, 2x lightning a mortar or wizard tower (or both when someone makes the mistake of putting them next to each other), and it's a lot easier to win. Not a guaranteed 3-star, but easier. Of course, once I learned how to use heal spells properly, I even stopped using that tactic.

* Warren probably already knows this, but to those trying to follow along, "aerial defense" means any defenses that can attack air units, including traps, while "air defense" usually means the Air Defense, abbreviated AD, which is a specific building. I think this convention comes from the wiki page, but not sure.

[Xitra]

A lot of suggestions for solving the mass dragon problem at TH7 involve adding aerial defenses, either a second AD, or a second SAM...

Clearly I meant a third AD at TH7. Maybe I was thinking a second new AD, i.e., unlock two extra AD's. Um, yeah, that's what I meant...

[Brucethemoose90]

Dragon swarms are all clan wars are anymore! I think that dragons are a little bit over powered and should probably be nerfed or just like add another level of air defense at all the town hall levels or something.

I couldn't disagree more dragons r being almost phased out in the higher levels. It has forced people to upgrade their air defense and now draggons r almost useless

[OfficerBarbary]

wait till your clan wars become more town hall 9 and 10 orientated..you'll rarely see them.

You will see them, just not 3 stars. Without counting rushed, the most tey can do is 1 star which is hard.

[ShaneHed13]

I'll still two star high level poorly laid out bases with lv 3 drags. But this is only if the AD are placed in an area where a couple don't overlap the TH and there is a decent cut into the middle of the base. Still, they are very underpowered at that level.

[DaScavenger]

I usually don't get 3-starred by Dragons. Unfortunately, there's nothing I can do to help you defend against dragons, apart from give you some help on how to defend against them:

• Upgrade Air Defenses + Archer Towers
• Keep Wizards/Archers in the Clan Castle
• Protect Air Defenses near the Center of your base.
• Put storages in front of Air Defenses to shield Air Defenses.

[gozdziuu]

I'm at th7 now and I don't even start to upgrade my air defenses because in war any th7 can 3 star other th7 base with mass dragon attack. At th7 we have only 2 ad's, even if upgraded to lvl5 and well placed they can't defend against dragons.

[Xitra]

I'm at th7 now and I don't even start to upgrade my air defenses because in war any th7 can 3 star other th7 base with mass dragon attack. At th7 we have only 2 ad's, even if upgraded to lvl5 and well placed they can't defend against dragons.

I'll admit, there isn't a TH7 base that can stop 10 level 1 dragons. Even if there is, it won't stop 10 level 1 dragons plus another dragon or some high level balloons (level 5-6) in the CC.

However, not every clan is super serious about war, especially at TH7 and below. In fact, I've yet to lose 3 stars on my TH7 in war. Most enemies just don't commit to the attack. They either try a ground attack (2 stars at best at TH7), or they only send like 6 dragons and a mix of ground troops, presumably because they're being cheap. Or maybe they just don't know how dragons work.

The reason to max your AD's at TH7 is just in case you get attacked by someone who thinks that all they have to do is drop 10 dragons and start laughing. With a good layout, and max AD's, you might get lucky. I've had 10 level 1 dragons fail to 3-star my base, because the enemy deployed his dragons poorly. He dropped them in two groups of 5, all deployed on the same spot so they clumped. That, combined with my base layout, and the dragons ended up splitting and circling the base, instead of working their way into the core.

The other reason to max your AD's at TH7, is because a TH8 can stop a mass dragon raid, with fully upgraded AD's. So going into TH8 with two level 5 AD's will save you the gold and the builder time to wait for lower level AD's to upgrade.