*Proof* of why snipers are damaging the economy

[Is0prene]

Just brainstorming,

What if they made it so that a TH snipe doesn't reward trophies, it only prevents a loss, but still grants the loot bonus.
(could diminish incentive to snipe if it gets low levels nowhere, but still offers high bases opportunities to get loot. Also separates leagues by those who can actually get their fairly.)

Also, if they made it so next cost was no longer factored into what town hall you were, but by what league you are in.
(high levels could actually afford to hit next more in lower leagues to find other high levels)

What if they made it so that loot penalty only affects amount taken from storages and doesn't apply to amount taken from collectors, pumps, and drills?
(Allows higher levels to take only what the inactive person failed to collect themself and doesn't damage what he has earned in his storages due to unfair advantage)

[Nyxiggon]

*snip*

You understand that loot has to come from somewhere, right? And that collectors represent an absolutely pitiful amount of loot towards what you need to max, right? This is all that math I posted.

Now, what Town Hall are you? I ask, because starting around mid TH9, 2 starring a base with a TH inside is actually kind of expensive. At minimum, you're talking Loonion with 2 spells. Most likely, you're talking GoWiWi, GoWiPe, or LavaLoonion (or the holo~ variants of such). To 3 star, you need that, plus heroes, plus some luck.

At TH10, 2 starring is a minimum LavaLoonion / GoWi~ variant, generally using heroes.

Let's talk cost. A TH9 GoWiPe runs roughly:
1350 DE for 2x golems
130k elixer for spells
120k for 3x pekka
35k for 10x wizards
36k for 12x wall breakers
Plus resources from clan mates for wizards in your clan castle
Plus heroes

So, you're talking ~321,000 elixer and 1,350 DE. The storage cap for elixer in TH9 is 350,000. So, without taking into account collectors, the most you can profit from this attack is 29,000 elixer. So, if you fail getting the TH, and only manage 50%, that 2% of league bonus (2400 elixer if you're in Master 2) sure isn't going to do much to offset that.

Oh, this raid also took 3 hours to cook (spells).

What about Loonion?
Typical farming loonion is 20 loons, 2 rages, 70 minions costs 146,000 elixer, 700 DE, and a full hour to cook. This army is absolutely not a guaranteed 2 star on a decent TH9, and mainly will only get storages. Your maximum storage profit is only 204,000.

Now, the fact that the only gold cost to raiding is from nexting might be a good thing. However, consider just how much more gold you need than elixer, and you start to realize that if you next 20 times as a TH9 (15,000 gold) or TH10 (20,000 gold), these just eat into your profit margins.

Now if we're talking about only raiding people with full storages, I have to ask you - how did they ever fill them?

The loot has to come from SOMEWHERE, right?

So again, let me ask you this. Lets say you're farming with Loonion, spending 0 gold nexting, and hitting bases with maximum storages (empty collectors) every time your 2 spells are ready, getting all the loot in all of the storages, failing zero raids, what is your maximum loot per hour?

350k gold, 204k elixer, and 1800 DE.

Your collectors would have produced 21,000 gold and elixer, and 200 DE. So, using these figures, here's how long it would take to max TH9 buildings:

543 hours worth of gold
446 hours worth of elixer

You understand how even in the best case, this is infeasible?

If we add in 100k for master 3 bonus (which is pretty hard for a TH9 to hang out in), you end up with:
427 hours for gold
299 hours for gold

Again, you realize that this isn't sustainable using the current league bonuses, right? Because again, if all you're doing is raiding full storages - how are those storages getting filled? What happens immediately after someone dumps all their resources into an upgrade?


There is a loot problem because raiding each other's storages is a net loss to the economy. Until passive production is increased (via collector levels and league bonuses), it will never realistically be feasible to have people steal loot from one another.

The answer is NOT to increase the size of the army required to take loot from someone. Right now, the scaling of costs compared to the scaling of loot caps and passive production is out of w♥♥♥♥. Take another look at the numbers I posted:
TH7 - 27.5M gold
TH8 - 101M gold (380%!) <--- problem
TH9 - 202M gold (200%!)
TH10 - 349M gold (150%)

Production:
TH7 - 432k/day
TH8 - 504k/day (~+12%)
TH9 - 504k/day (same! big discrepancy!) <--- problem
Th10 - 588k/day (~+16%! big discrepancy!)

Again, remember that I'm discounted walls (1 BILLION resources in TH9, and 2 BILLION resources in TH10).

So, if we're to start raiding other people's storages, the storage caps need to be drastically revamped, the league bonuses need to be revamped, training costs and training times need to be revamped....

Or, we could just increase the passive production of bases in TH9 and TH10, and continue the way we've been playing - 1 star for farming, 3 star for war.

[Goobers]

Is there a "Kid's Corner" of the forum that we could put all the people who clearly aren't understanding what the OP is addressing here, but instead of taking a moment to grasp the concept like a functional member of society would do, are instead just taking a verbal dump on the page?

I dread the day that these people are put into positions of actual responsibility that require critical thinking.

If you feel that way about snipers then in my opinion your th should be protected.

.... And most of all, you should probably put your own th IN? Ppl in glasshouses and all that?

You place your town hall in a corner just so someone snipe it. And then you tell everyone how it is wrong for snipers to snipe town halls ? Even if it is wrong, you're part of the problem itself.

Afterall, YOU, left your TH out, for the very reason - you wanted a snipe, and protected loot, and got what you wanted.. so why is it snipers fault, rather than farmers leaving their TH outside who are to blame?

Hypocritical much?

Why put your TH outside if you don't want the exact thing that you are criticising to occur?

It think the only troll here is you

If you leave your TH outside, your putting out an invitation for the snipers. If you left your TH inside protected, no snipers will attack it and eventually a storage raider will take your base for the loot.

No problem here, OP puts TH outside then moans that he got sniped and got shielded. doh....

So, what's the point on getting out your TH, and giving the snipers the chance to take down your TH? You just could leave your TH hidden.

So, in essence, you're wishing you had gotten your loot stolen? I don't get that. This doesn't prove much however. If you have your TH out, you know and are inviting any snipers to snipe you. If you wanted all your stuff taken put your Th in the middle, then you would loose trophies AND loot! Fun!

Be apart of the solution not the problem is the moral of the story here.

I agree - to make a thread and point out or complain about something that you are also doing isn't a good look.

How about you put your town hall inside and I am pretty sure someone will find you sooner or later and clean you up.

If you think it's ruining the clash economy, then stick you th inside

- - - - -

Meanwhile we have someone who accurately summarized up the issue in a very concise post.

"Don't hate the player, hate the game"

This isn't the fault of TH snipers, it's just bad game design.

[Fonso4g]

Man I wish I would've found your base lol

[Goobers]

The problems with all the so-called solutions to it is that they are too extreme and would fundamentally change the game. Of course you can say that the current way isn't ideal, but I very much doubt they will change it unless they think it through to avoid any potential solutions from breaking the game

You are absolutely right, it would fundamentally cause a shift in the way most raiding/farming is done, at least up in higher leagues. I just think that it would be substantially better than the model that is currently being used.

If they used some form of sandbox mode, and invited players to play in this developer version of it where they could tweak the league bonus to the increase it needed to be, as well as the multipliers, could that work though? I'm not doubting that several tweaks would have to be done to the league bonus increases as well as the multiplier/penalty % for TH disparity, but they would eventually get it balanced, right?

Besides, it's not as though this would be the first time Supercell has simply "rolled out" a new update that totally rocked the economy/fundamental way the game was played before, haha.

[Nyxiggon]

I believe the move that duramaxin pulled there would be referred to a strawman, lol.

Yeah, it would seem pretty hypocritical of me to be sniping THs and offering my TH up for others to snipe if at the same time I was condemning the TH snipers for what they're doing. The problem with his accusation is that he's having me defend a stance that I never made.

But regarding the league bonus offsetting the loot hidden by snipers, I have to strongly disagree. I understand that a TH snipe involves very little, if any, resources expended in order to bring in game-generated resources (the league bonus). From a macro scale, this increases ("improves") the overall economy. There is no denying that, to try and do so would require me to be willfully ignorant of how the macro-economy works in general. But this is entirely different from it being bad for the game.

The consequences of all these TH snipes are that bases both with little and large stores of loot are taken out of the matchmaking queue. They are no longer available to other raiders, and causes the amount of Nexting required to find a viable base to hit to increase. And then as you've probably read from the previous posts, it just reinforces the vicious cycle of making more and more players have to adapt and use cheap troops, now they too have to go for the cheapest form of farming, etc, etc. (I'm not gonna repeat myself in full, haha)

If Supercell were to reform the league bonus system, they could effectively remove TH snipes as a form of farming. It could also be done with little to no effect on the macro-economy. Of course they would need to increase league bonuses again, but they would only be fully earned from 2-star attacks. And then 3-stars have a multiplier applied to them which would flatten the higher up in leagues you go, as the league bonus face value increases pretty substantially up there.

From a micro scale, what we would see are bases with exposed THs not being hit for just their TH with the exception of players who want to increase/maintain their trophy range. I would suspect an equilibrium would be hit where bases with exposed THs and very little loot would be sniped away using an AQ or a few archers, while exposed TH bases with large loots being hit for at least 2 stars and going for storages. It fundamentally changes the dynamic of how people will raid, expanding the options for farming and having higher potential rewards for greater attacks.

If you remove Barch and TH sniping (both a function of the same thing - 1 star wins for the league bonus), you have to have an answer for how people can profitably farm. If you remove a source of income (that comes at zero lost resource cost), you need to provide a way to get those resources back into the economy.

3 starring someone is not a viable tactic. One, because at TH9 and TH10, 3 stars can often come down to luck. Two, because 2 and 3 starring opponents of equal TH level requires maxed troops (how would you get to those troop levels if you can't ever 2/3 star in the first place?). And three, because the army that is capable of 3 starring equal level opponents takes 2+ hours to create.

Nobody in their right mind thinks that is a viable solution, unless in that 2 hour raid, you essentially get to fill ~half your storage. Because that's the reality.

Last night, I boosted for one session. I made 4.1 million gold, 3.5 million elixer, and about 15k DE. I barched in C3, looking for dead bases, TH's to snipe, and easy to reach DE. If you're saying that instead of boosting for 2 hours, I should have just done one attack, in order for me to progress at my current rate (which is much slower than many farming super stars), that's how much I would need to make in that one raid. Even if you're saying that I should only use 2 spells, and 2 star instead of 3 star, I would need to make 2 mil gold and 1.75m elixer (profit, PS) in that one hour, in order for it to be equivalent.



Unless you think that it should take LONGER to max your base...

[youwire]

Thread is not making any sense.

Snipers are generating resources out of nothing. How is that damaging?


Pushing inactives back in the queue is way damaging the economy then anything else.

[Warble]

There is a loot problem because raiding each other's storages is a net loss to the economy. Until passive production is increased (via collector levels and league bonuses), it will never realistically be feasible to have people steal loot from one another.

This is true. We would need a significant increase. I'm not entirely sure how much would be required, but it's not something an extra collector level could possibly make up for.

The idea does need some fleshing out, but I believe there's merit here. Wouldn't it be fantastic to be able to get the same kind of loot and at the same rate you would if only barched abandoned bases, but instead through attacking live players with different army compositions? I don't see a downside to that.

There's some smart people here, I think the kinks can be worked out. The biggest hurdle here I think would be Supercell. Elixir walls, troop AI, the time bug, and removing abandoned bases from the queue, just to name a few things off the top of my head, make me wonder if they'd be able to handle a task of this magnitude. Really, it's a good thing they're a wealthy corporation. I wouldn't hire these guys to code my toaster.

[Warble]

Thread is not making any sense.

Snipers are generating resources out of nothing. How is that damaging?

Pushing inactives back in the queue is way damaging the economy then anything else.

Try reading the posts before participating in the discussion.

Thanks.

[MikeLeL]

if only these selfish snipers would think of what they are doing to the economy.

And yet you enable the snipers by putting your TH outside, unprotected 😰

I'm glad you raised this point. The reason is that I want to give people a safety net, so to speak. They can take on my base with no risk of losing trophies, because of my outside town hall.

If you do not have your town hall out you barely get attacked. And I want to not only help myself, but also those players who are not 100% sure that they can 50% my base. I want to help these new players to be able to confidently attack.

That sounds like a really good excuse.



I have a rushed th10 account that I barely login, except when I get the notification that my shield is running out. Thats when I login to dry out my collectors. But sometimes I forget to collect them and of all of those missed times, I get all my collectors emptied out by snipers.

Give us a lot more than 2 "Proofs"