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  Click here to go to the first staff post in this thread.   Thread: Builder Huts have more war weight then Eagle+Inferno+Scatter

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redrosetentoes View Post
    It never ceases to amaze me how simple concepts go right over peoples heads in this forum. The point of the archer example was to show that if you were doing a queen walk and a builder started repairing a building near the outside that all you would need to do was drop two archers to negate that repairing effect. Where as your lava hound example really doesn't prove anything except that for 30 housing spaces, it has a very weak attack.
    Which is why I pointed out it was a bad concept. I never said it was very complex concepts, no?
    Why it was bad? Because there is no way 2 Archers would make it to the Builder Hut itself. The Builder Hut is dealing DPS worth of at least TH10 Archer Tower as well, and equal to TH12 Archer Tower when fully upgraded. Anytime I am offered Defense are added 5 Archer Towers worth of defenses, I am taking it. Because it makes huge difference.

    The Lava Hound example was to show how ridiculously bad your Archer concepts was, it was following your logic, and I fully agree with you pointing out the concepts doesn't prove anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redrosetentoes View Post
    For your second point, I never said the repair effect made no difference. I said it was mostly negligible meaning that most of the time it would have a small effect, but on occasion it could make an impact. So in your example what you are saying is that the RC requires one additional hit, so that is 1.2 seconds. So you tell me if an additional 1.2s out of 3 minutes is a lot or not. Also you do realize that you have pets and 3 additional heroes and 300 camp space and cc troops right. One last thing, where are you getting the 500hp repair from? Check your numbers again.
    It's 10% more to take out the building in the Scattershot example, for Scattershot and your other defenses, that's huge impact in damaging your armies. And when you have 5 of them Builder Huts repairing damaged buildings, over time it accumulates. If you are playing this game for long time, you should know how 5-10 seconds difference is having huge impact on overall of your attack, if you don't think so, ask your Heroes.
    Last edited by Mercfovia87; May 12th, 2021 at 03:38 PM.

  2. #92
    Senior Member Illuminance's Avatar
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    Also, the huts changes the dynamics of base building and attack strategies. Something a new level of previously existing defenses don't. New levels of existing defenses are more or less the same as all previously unlocked TH levels, they have to be increased to deal with new troop levels.

  3. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Ajax View Post
    If you had actually understood what we have all been saying, you would not have posted that table as it is. It is only changes that matter for weighting.
    You seem to think that you're always right, but guess what you're not. I will point out what you got wrong in your post. My question is if you will admit to being wrong.

    There is no change to the range of the big 3, so that should not be included. One could even argue the other way, since builder huts had no range before. And the only thing that could be considered a change to the splash damage is the poison.
    My table was never meant to show only just the changes, it was meant to show all the different variables so that whoever looked at it could decide what was meaningful to them. The point about the range was to show the effectiveness of the dps for a defense's range. For example +15dps for the eagle is effective up to a 50 range compared to let's say +15dps for a hidden tesla's 7 range. So the eagle's dps increase is going to be more effective than the hidden teslas, therefor the weight should lean more towards the eagle even though they both got the same dps increase in this example. However, if you don't like the range data then don't consider it.
    The builder huts having no range before and now having range is just what happens to all new defenses, but how much weight does that even call for. Is it the case that the battle huts have new range and the big 3 don't so therefor the huts have more weight. I prefer to look at the effectiveness of the dps over the range because that seems more like comparing apples to apples to me. The splash damage for the eagle and scatter should've increased so I don't know why you wouldn't apply any weight to them.

    And if you think 10% of your army is negligible, then you must be an absolutely super attacker. Few of us finish an attack with anything like that much army left, even when we get a triple or a time fail.
    Where are you getting 10% from? My archer example 10 out 300 camps? Let me do the math for you 10 divided by 300 equals 0.033333. Multiply that by 100 and you get 3.3333% Looks like you were wrong here.

    If you want to believe weaponising the builder huts to be worth less than upgrading the big 3, please continue to do so. Supercell think otherwise, from the apparent weighting, and I think they are right in that.
    It doesn't matter what I believe or others believe, all I was doing was trying to discuss as to where things might lay by looking at as many variables as possible.
    Do you really believe Supercell never makes any mistakes? They have never had to nerf anything? Buff anything?

    The HP is greater, and if you treat the healing (or repair if you prefer the term) as a subtraction from the attackers DPS (which is what it effectively is), then the DPS is also higher. To me, that makes them worth more.
    First off you're wrong if you think my use of the term repair is for preference, it's just the proper term and it's in the game. You wouldn't ask a construction worker to heal your garage would you?
    How in the world does the repairing effect make the dps higher. All the repairing effect does is prolong the hit points of the building.

    Look if you see that the battle huts are worth more, I'm not going to say that you're wrong. Because you're not wrong, but you're also not right either and certainly not right about everything. Sometimes there is no right or wrong answer.

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redrosetentoes View Post
    You seem to think that you're always right, but guess what you're not. I will point out what you got wrong in your post.....

    Look if you see that the battle huts are worth more, I'm not going to say that you're wrong. Because you're not wrong, but you're also not right either and certainly not right about everything. Sometimes there is no right or wrong answer.
    The New Level of Contradiction.
    Oh it's same post by the way, just first paragraph and the last paragraph.

  5.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Redrosetentoes View Post
    You seem to think that you're always right, but guess what you're not. I will point out what you got wrong in your post. My question is if you will admit to being wrong.


    My table was never meant to show only just the changes, it was meant to show all the different variables so that whoever looked at it could decide what was meaningful to them.
    Well te discussion is about whether the weight difference between adding 5 weaponised builder huts or upgrading all the big 3 defences is "right", so it is only the changes that are relevant.

    The point about the range was to show the effectiveness of the dps for a defense's range. For example +15dps for the eagle is effective up to a 50 range compared to let's say +15dps for a hidden tesla's 7 range. So the eagle's dps increase is going to be more effective than the hidden teslas, therefor the weight should lean more towards the eagle even though they both got the same dps increase in this example. However, if you don't like the range data then don't consider it.
    That is a fair point. You are right, a given additional DPS is worth more with long range than with short range.

    The builder huts having no range before and now having range is just what happens to all new defenses, but how much weight does that even call for. Is it the case that the battle huts have new range and the big 3 don't so therefor the huts have more weight.
    I don't know. I just said it could be argued.

    I prefer to look at the effectiveness of the dps over the range because that seems more like comparing apples to apples to me. The splash damage for the eagle and scatter should've increased so I don't know why you wouldn't apply any weight to them.


    Where are you getting 10% from? My archer example 10 out 300 camps? Let me do the math for you 10 divided by 300 equals 0.033333. Multiply that by 100 and you get 3.3333% Looks like you were wrong here.
    Yes. I misread your 10 out of 300 as being 10%, and didn't think closely enough to realise that was obviously wrong.

    It doesn't matter what I believe or others believe, all I was doing was trying to discuss as to where things might lay by looking at as many variables as possible.
    Do you really believe Supercell never makes any mistakes? They have never had to nerf anything? Buff anything?
    Of course they make mistakes. I've never suggested they are anywhere near perfect.

    First off you're wrong if you think my use of the term repair is for preference, it's just the proper term and it's in the game. You wouldn't ask a construction worker to heal your garage would you?
    This one I won't admit to.

    It is your preference to use that term. Others prefer to use another term, however "correct" you regard it.


    How in the world does the repairing effect make the dps higher. All the repairing effect does is prolong the hit points of the building.
    It doesn't make the dps higher. I said it subtracts from the attackers DPS. You could equally say it increases the defending building's HP, but the effect is exactly the same. In a given period, damage done by the attacker is reduced by the amount of repairs done by the builder.

    Look if you see that the battle huts are worth more, I'm not going to say that you're wrong. Because you're not wrong, but you're also not right either and certainly not right about everything. Sometimes there is no right or wrong answer.
    Sometimes there isn't, true.

    But in this case, I'm not convinced that there isn't.

  6. #96
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    I guess the whole premise of this thread of builder huts weight is interesting. I have 2 accounts and have to work hard the last couple days each season to complete even silver pass on my mini. I only started it to be able to chat in 2 clans back when having a sister clan for accounts to park and stay out of war was a thing.

    But with the advent of TH14 I have decided to play it a bit more often. It's a mid level TH13, major defenses max, eagle, scattershots, infernos. Heros not bad but only warden close to max. Haven't touched an archer tower or cannon. Couple wiz towers have a level.

    After enjoying my pets on my main (couple days from unlocking unicorn) and starting my last x-bow and air defense up, I started my mini's TH to 14. My plan is to only upgrade my builder huts and pets. I likely will do champion or queen when I have a book. I don't seem to have trouble looting TH14s now so think it will be interesting. Supercell will like me because I bought gold pass on both accounts! I am now interested in what my weight will be with huts upgraded!

  7.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redrosetentoes View Post
    It never ceases to amaze me how simple concepts go right over peoples heads in this forum. The point of the archer example was to show that if you were doing a queen walk and a builder started repairing a building near the outside that all you would need to do was drop two archers to negate that repairing effect. Where as your lava hound example really doesn't prove anything except that for 30 housing spaces, it has a very weak attack.

    For your second point, I never said the repair effect made no difference. I said it was mostly negligible meaning that most of the time it would have a small effect, but on occasion it could make an impact. So in your example what you are saying is that the RC requires one additional hit, so that is 1.2 seconds. So you tell me if an additional 1.2s out of 3 minutes is a lot or not. Also you do realize that you have pets and 3 additional heroes and 300 camp space and cc troops right. One last thing, where are you getting the 500hp repair from? Check your numbers again.
    The thing is though that it just doesn’t work like that. You can’t always drop those 1-2 extra archers in the middle of the battle field as you please.

    Sometimes buildings take damage before they're actually attacked by your army force. And if you say that’s only on occasion you’re downplaying quite a bit of troops and attack strategies which are around and would all be affected. There are quite a few strategies that use 8 quake and so you don’t have to drop it in the heat of the battle many players do their quakes at the start. Especially for the second quake group those builders could’ve repaired the buildings quite considerably by the time your troops get there. That’s not negligible.

    Attack chains that caused by owls or E drags which already weakened some buildings before the army gets there. Or the bowlers second bounce damage, or the troops used for funneling weakened some buildings already etc etc.

    I have seen a lot of attacks where the RC speeds ahead at one point and takes down defenses and damages some with shield to weaken them but gets killed in some part of the base. In some cases your army gets there a minute or so later. Now with a builder having a minute to repair stuff in that area that’s a lot of repairing and certainly not negligible.

    1.2 seconds might not seem as much but on those clutch 3 stars with the last shots of the surviving troops it makes a difference that buildings have been damaged. 1.2 seconds might make the difference between an RC taking out an important inferno or leaving it with just a tiny bit of health. I’ve seen RCs taking down infernos with their last shot and get killed from the damage that’s still incoming. So yea 1.2 seconds extra wasted elsewhere makes a difference. I’ve seen similar with an AQ just taking out a key defense with her last bit of health... or her approaching a defense which had been damaged a long time before and now just needs 1-2 hits to go down instead of a full health. It makes a difference for your troops and your attack time.

    So many situations where it makes quite a significant difference and you keep insisting it’s negligible. There also have been quite a few reports here around the forum already of players experiencing things which are certainly not negligible like my CWL experience or people using zap quakes etc.
    One of these days this negligible repair function will cause your attack to go different then without a builder repairing buildings, one of these days such a builder hut will ruin your attack.
    Last edited by Kaptain Kat; May 13th, 2021 at 12:45 PM.

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  8. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaptain Kat View Post
    The thing is though that it just doesnít work like that. You canít always drop those 1-2 extra archers in the middle of the battle field as you please.

    Sometimes buildings take damage before they're actually attacked by your army force. And if you say thatís only on occasion youíre downplaying quite a bit of troops and attack strategies which are around and would all be affected. There are quite a few strategies that use 8 quake and so you donít have to drop it in the heat of the battle many players do their quakes at the start. Especially for the second quake group those builders couldíve repaired the buildings quite considerably by the time your troops get there. Thatís not negligible.

    Attack chains that caused by owls or E drags which already weakened some buildings before the army gets there. Or the bowlers second bounce damage, or the troops used for funneling weakened some buildings already etc etc.

    I have seen a lot of attacks where the RC speeds ahead at one point and takes down defenses and damages some with shield to weaken them but gets killed in some part of the base. In some cases your army gets there a minute or so later. Now with a builder having a minute to repair stuff in that area thatís a lot of repairing and certainly not negligible.

    1.2 seconds might not seem as much but on those clutch 3 stars with the last shots of the surviving troops it makes a difference that buildings have been damaged. 1.2 seconds might make the difference between an RC taking out an important inferno or leaving it with just a tiny bit of health. Iíve seen RCs taking down infernos with their last shot and get killed from the damage thatís still incoming. So yea 1.2 seconds extra wasted elsewhere makes a difference. Iíve seen similar with an AQ just taking out a key defense with her last bit of health... or her approaching a defense which had been damaged a long time before and now just needs 1-2 hits to go down instead of a full health. It makes a difference for your troops and your attack time.

    So many situations where it makes quite a significant difference and you keep insisting itís negligible. There also have been quite a few reports here around the forum already of players experiencing things which are certainly not negligible like my CWL experience or people using zap quakes etc.
    One of these days this negligible repair function will cause your attack to go different then without a builder repairing buildings, one of these days such a builder hut will ruin your attack.
    First of all, everyone seems to be caught up on the word negligible. For the record the first time I mentioned it I wrote, "mostly negligible," which is different than just "negligible" on its own. It was merely supposed to mean small and in hindsight it was somewhat a poor choice of words. So, no the repair function is not negligible, but it is mostly small until it's not with increasing time.
    Secondly, if you read my later posts, you would see that my opinion about the battle huts and repair had increased.

    How about this, I'll agree with you that the repair function is quite significant if it causes an additional required hit, but only if you agree with me that the repair function is ""mostly" negligible" if it does not cause an additional required hit.

    Try this variation of a previous example: Level 2 scattershot 4200hp, Level 2 builder 50rps vs Max Royal champion 696dph.

    A Max RC needs 7 hits to destroy a Lvl 2 scattershot, 1.2s per hit for a total 8.4s. A level 2 builder hut can repair up to 400hp in that 8.4s. So add 400hp to the 4200hp for a total of 4600hp. The RC's 7 hits x 696dph = 4,872 damage. So the RC destroys the level 2 scattershot without any additional hits. So do you agree with me??? Even if you don't agree with me, I agree with you.

    Anyway, all this talk about repairs reminded me of Fix it Felix and with the giant looking kind of like Ralph, it makes me want to go watch Wreck it Ralph. "I'm gonna wreck it!" "I can fix it!"

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redrosetentoes View Post
    First of all, everyone seems to be caught up on the word negligible. For the record the first time I mentioned it I wrote, "mostly negligible," which is different than just "negligible" on its own. It was merely supposed to mean small and in hindsight it was somewhat a poor choice of words. So, no the repair function is not negligible, but it is mostly small until it's not with increasing time.
    Secondly, if you read my later posts, you would see that my opinion about the battle huts and repair had increased.

    How about this, I'll agree with you that the repair function is quite significant if it causes an additional required hit, but only if you agree with me that the repair function is ""mostly" negligible" if it does not cause an additional required hit.

    Try this variation of a previous example: Level 2 scattershot 4200hp, Level 2 builder 50rps vs Max Royal champion 696dph.

    A Max RC needs 7 hits to destroy a Lvl 2 scattershot, 1.2s per hit for a total 8.4s. A level 2 builder hut can repair up to 400hp in that 8.4s. So add 400hp to the 4200hp for a total of 4600hp. The RC's 7 hits x 696dph = 4,872 damage. So the RC destroys the level 2 scattershot without any additional hits. So do you agree with me??? Even if you don't agree with me, I agree with you.

    Anyway, all this talk about repairs reminded me of Fix it Felix and with the giant looking kind of like Ralph, it makes me want to go watch Wreck it Ralph. "I'm gonna wreck it!" "I can fix it!"
    This is where smart base building comes in to play. If there's a ground skelly trap right next to the scattershot, the RC will get distracted killing them. Gives the builder more time to heal, means at least one extra shot to kill the defense. Profit.

    I think the ultimate takeaway I'm getting from this thread is that the benefit isn't easily measured by a direct numbers comparison. The builders' repair during battle is seemingly negligible from a purely statistical perspective, but it is a more subtle effect than what a lot of us are used to and is game changing IF employed correctly to work in concert with other aspects of your base's defense.
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  10.   This is the last staff post in this thread.   #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redrosetentoes View Post
    First of all, everyone seems to be caught up on the word negligible. For the record the first time I mentioned it I wrote, "mostly negligible," which is different than just "negligible" on its own. It was merely supposed to mean small and in hindsight it was somewhat a poor choice of words. So, no the repair function is not negligible, but it is mostly small until it's not with increasing time.
    Secondly, if you read my later posts, you would see that my opinion about the battle huts and repair had increased.

    How about this, I'll agree with you that the repair function is quite significant if it causes an additional required hit, but only if you agree with me that the repair function is ""mostly" negligible" if it does not cause an additional required hit.

    Try this variation of a previous example: Level 2 scattershot 4200hp, Level 2 builder 50rps vs Max Royal champion 696dph.

    A Max RC needs 7 hits to destroy a Lvl 2 scattershot, 1.2s per hit for a total 8.4s. A level 2 builder hut can repair up to 400hp in that 8.4s. So add 400hp to the 4200hp for a total of 4600hp. The RC's 7 hits x 696dph = 4,872 damage. So the RC destroys the level 2 scattershot without any additional hits. So do you agree with me??? Even if you don't agree with me, I agree with you.

    Anyway, all this talk about repairs reminded me of Fix it Felix and with the giant looking kind of like Ralph, it makes me want to go watch Wreck it Ralph. "I'm gonna wreck it!" "I can fix it!"
    As the previous poster also said it will very much depend on how the builders huts are best utilized and it will depend on which army the attacker brings. In some instances it will have very little impact but in some cases it can have a major impact. So I do agree with that we both have a valid point. I also reacted because people read negligible and form the conclusion they can ignore them or they donít matter that much which is not quite true.

    The issue also is that we laser in on 1 of the 3 major things a builder hut brings to the battle. The other 2 are the considerable total amount of hitpoints youíd have to destroy for that 3 star and the fact we have 5 extra turrets shooting at your army.
    All things considered that makes them something to be reckoned with

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