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  Click here to go to the first staff post in this thread.   Thread: Builder Huts have more war weight then Eagle+Inferno+Scatter

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redrosetentoes View Post
    The archer example is just a form of representation to try to better depict as to why the repair effect is mostly negligible. 2 archers is representative of the repair effect of one builder. 10 archers is representative of the repair effect of 5 builders. That means that the repair effect could be seen as equivalent to 10 housing spaces out of 300 spaces in your camps. 10 out of 300 being a small amount to people could be considered as mostly negligible. That doesn't mean that the repair effect won't make some difference, but a massive difference... I don't know about that.

    The reason some people might come to different conclusions as to the weighting of the battle huts is that they may be looking at more variables. Such as the extra beam on the inferno, poison bomb's effects, range, splash damage, and the new lvl dps over the entire amount of the big defenses hit points. The point of a discussion isn't so that we all jump on the same bandwagon, but that we try to look at every aspect and every angle and every avenue. That way we are less likely to overlook something.

    So let's look at the numbers again. For the Inferno we have +12dps times 5 beams times 3 towers equals 180, then we add the new 6th beam at 105dps for 3 towers equals 315dps. 180dps plus 315dps equals 495dps. +400hp * 3 towers equals 1200hp. The eagle is just +15dps and +400hp. The scatters is +20dps * 2 scatters equals 40dps and +600hp * 2 scatters equals 1200hp. The poison bomb does +140dps. Totals are 690dps and 2800hp.
    Battle huts are 80dps * 5 equals 400 dps and +750hp * 5 equals 3750hp.

    Big 3 + poison bomb lvl3 Battle huts lvl2
    dps 550dps + 140dps = 690dps > 400dps
    hp 2800hp < 3750hp
    splash Eagle 5/hit, scatters 40-60/hit, poison 140dps >
    repair < 50-250hp/s
    range 10-50 > 7

    Well well well, the picture wasn't quite as clear as we all thought...for either side. I think the weight leans slightly towards the big 3, but those battle huts with the hit points and repair effect could be a headache in some instances. The battle hut stats at level 4 do start to look formidable.

    Anyway, what I don't understand is why people keep using the term "healing" for the builder's ability. LoL
    This whole math is way off you should double check the upgrades again. I already posted this table and you got radically different numbers because you arbitrarily made poison a point damage. What happens if nothing enters the poison? Is it still point damage or is it area damage? Also why is poison on here twice? May as well double a number on the builder side. Lets just call healing splash too for fun.

    Also its interesting you claim the range of the "big 3" had an increased range of 50 tiles. Can you tell me which defense got this buff?

    Really this seems weighted heavily by bias to make other defenses look better and not accurately show the change. I would toss this evidence out and not form an opinion by it with out the material errors corrected.

    Edited to add other considerations: if you add ranges of damage to parts, the range should go from 0, this goes for healing or splash. Neither of these will always happen. A queen walk could go around the th poison or the healers dont get hit by the scatter. The builder huts might be destroyed before the repair takes place.

    Since the builder huts are upgradable, the player must have a level 1 poison on the th by default so a level 3 only has 40 AoE addition against someone with lvl 2 builder huts. 140dps assumes they are th 13s with lvl 2 builder huts or lvl 2 and 3 add 140dps to the base 100dps.

    To help the eagle, the buff is 50 not 15. You left out 35 dps.
    Last edited by chased123456; May 12th, 2021 at 01:25 AM.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by chased123456 View Post
    This whole math is way off you should double check the upgrades again. I already posted this table and you got radically different numbers because you arbitrarily made poison a point damage. What happens if nothing enters the poison? Is it still point damage or is it area damage? Also why is poison on here twice? May as well double a number on the builder side. Lets just call healing splash too for fun.
    LoL, what's with forumers getting so salty over a discussion. Our numbers are different because you didn't post how you got your numbers and maybe you may have left out some things and I didn't follow exactly along your criteria. I left the poison bomb dps to the side so that people could decide to include it or not. The point of this thread is about weights right, so whether the poison bomb hits anything or not it should still have some weight to it. The first row was just a list of dps in general, but if you don't like that poison bomb being there I'll remove it for you.

    Also its interesting you claim the range of the "big 3" had an increased range of 50 tiles. Can you tell me which defense got this buff?
    The range is merely the range of the defenses. The eagle has a range of up to 50. I don't know where you were going with your range category. It looks like you just multiplied the battle huts range of 7 by 5 to get 35. If we multiply the 3 additional beams of the inferno towers by a 10 range we get 30. So it's not too far off.
    Really this seems weighted heavily by bias to make other defenses look better and not accurately show the change. I would toss this evidence out and not form an opinion by it with out the material errors corrected.
    LoL, the same might be said about your chart and no not everyone is trying to be biased. How did you get your hp to 3500hp? Did you include the 3 new additional multi inferno beams? Did you multiply the dps increase of the inferno to each of the 5 beams? I think our numbers might be different because of this.
    Edited to add other considerations: if you add ranges of damage to parts, the range should go from 0, this goes for healing or splash. Neither of these will always happen. A queen walk could go around the th poison or the healers dont get hit by the scatter. The builder huts might be destroyed before the repair takes place.
    I'm not trying adjust for every possible scenario. Remember, we are just trying measure out the weight that would come from upgrading levels on the big 3 and the th14 poison bomb.
    Since the builder huts are upgradable, the player must have a level 1 poison on the th by default so a level 3 only has 40 AoE addition against someone with lvl 2 builder huts. 140dps assumes they are th 13s with lvl 2 builder huts or lvl 2 and 3 add 140dps to the base 100dps.
    Ah, good catch here. Thanks, I'll edit my chart to reflect this.
    To help the eagle, the buff is 50 not 15. You left out 35 dps.
    I think the 50 is for damage per hit, where as the 15 is for damage per second. So I'll leave it.

  3. #83
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    You were right about the eagle, im not used to stats in damage per hit and overlooked it. Ill adjust my chart too. I also forgot to remove the hp increase in the th upgrade from 13 to 14 since both get those so the hp should be lowered on my chart as well.

    Thank you for adjusting the poison. I found reading the math was poorly formated so I went to the chart and got confused because the poison was on twice. I understand you wanted people to decide but it should've been clearer. I think placing it in one spot made the chart much better. There are others who probably wouldve skimmed and not caught that.

    About the range: my chart is changes only at maximum value based on optimal placement to get 100% value. You were correct about my 75. However I do think back and notice the area of change is misleading because area of 5 7 tile radius is different than 1 35 tile radius which could be read as by my chart. When I notice that all your categories are the changes, seeing a range is misleading as I might conclude ranges were increased at first glance. I dont mind the ranges there but I wouldve added a note to clarify this. I wouldn't multiply new beams because the beams are in an existing range. Its not more coverage by the tower but more dps available within the range.

    Ps: data presentation is a part of what I want to do. I hope you dont mind me looking at your presentation and looking for ways to improve it or clarify it. I think it helps the community as a whole when they have good data to look at.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by chased123456 View Post
    You were right about the eagle, im not used to stats in damage per hit and overlooked it. Ill adjust my chart too. I also forgot to remove the hp increase in the th upgrade from 13 to 14 since both get those so the hp should be lowered on my chart as well.

    Thank you for adjusting the poison. I found reading the math was poorly formated so I went to the chart and got confused because the poison was on twice. I understand you wanted people to decide but it should've been clearer. I think placing it in one spot made the chart much better. There are others who probably wouldve skimmed and not caught that.

    About the range: my chart is changes only at maximum value based on optimal placement to get 100% value. You were correct about my 75. However I do think back and notice the area of change is misleading because area of 5 7 tile radius is different than 1 35 tile radius which could be read as by my chart. When I notice that all your categories are the changes, seeing a range is misleading as I might conclude ranges were increased at first glance. I dont mind the ranges there but I wouldve added a note to clarify this. I wouldn't multiply new beams because the beams are in an existing range. Its not more coverage by the tower but more dps available within the range.

    Ps: data presentation is a part of what I want to do. I hope you dont mind me looking at your presentation and looking for ways to improve it or clarify it. I think it helps the community as a whole when they have good data to look at.
    It's great that our numbers are getting closer to the same. I read your original post a while ago and I honestly should've gone back to read it again more carefully before haphazardly tossing together my post because I definitely forgot a lot of the important points that you covered. We went for different things in regards to the range category, I gather that you were going for additional new coverage for the battle huts. Where as I was just listing the range where the new lvl dps would be effective in as you've noted above. I can see your reasoning on that matter.

    I think we've both made the picture a little bit more clearer in this scenario of war weights. Whether it's settled or not I'm going to leave that in your talented hands and others to continue on. So anyone who is still curious about this should go back and look at your post#45.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redrosetentoes View Post
    The archer example is just a form of representation to try to better depict as to why the repair effect is mostly negligible. 2 archers is representative of the repair effect of one builder. 10 archers is representative of the repair effect of 5 builders. That means that the repair effect could be seen as equivalent to 10 housing spaces out of 300 spaces in your camps. 10 out of 300 being a small amount to people could be considered as mostly negligible. That doesn't mean that the repair effect won't make some difference, but a massive difference... I don't know about that.

    The reason some people might come to different conclusions as to the weighting of the battle huts is that they may be looking at more variables. Such as the extra beam on the inferno, poison bomb's effects, range, splash damage, and the new lvl dps over the entire amount of the big defenses hit points. The point of a discussion isn't so that we all jump on the same bandwagon, but that we try to look at every aspect and every angle and every avenue. That way we are less likely to overlook something.
    Well then the Archer example is a bad example in this case, because there is no way Archer could even get close to Builder Huts without first getting shot at, unless you are bringing so many Archers that the Builder Huts is unable to counter it. So your example is flawed and not making any point to support the weakness of Builder Hut in your opinion. For instance, one might argue, Lava Hound is dealing lesser damage than the Repair per Second of a Builder Hut, thus Builder Hut is worth more than 30 housing space. See that's the invalidity of using such example.


    Now, the Repair per Seconds is negligible ?
    Let's go for an example of Scattershot vs Max Royal Champion
    Max Scattershot : HP 4,800
    Max Royal Champion : DPH 696

    So Max RC need 7 Hits to destroy Max Scattershot, or in other words, 8.4 seconds.
    During that 8.4 seconds a Level 2 Builder Hut could repair up to 500 HP.
    Which means, now RC require to use 8 hits to destroy a Max Scattershot instead of 7 hits, 0.8 seconds more. If you percentage it, that's around 10% more time needed. I don't know whether that's negligible for you, but the stats say that Repair HP means more attack/time required (around 10-20%) for your troops to destroy those buildings. And we have 5 of them Builder Huts that can be stack to cover several same buildings.
    Last edited by Mercfovia87; May 12th, 2021 at 06:08 AM.

  6. #86
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    I’m not going to get into the nitty gritty of what’s being discussed here. But, I did learn something new. It didn’t occur to me that once you upgrade the builder huts they become a brand new defense. I’m really going to miss these forums for info just like this.
    Quote Originally Posted by applepie04 View Post
    Better yet, they should give us a "Book of Please Teach me How to Farm so I can Upgrade my Walls"

  7.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by Redrosetentoes View Post
    The archer example is just a form of representation to try to better depict as to why the repair effect is mostly negligible. 2 archers is representative of the repair effect of one builder. 10 archers is representative of the repair effect of 5 builders. That means that the repair effect could be seen as equivalent to 10 housing spaces out of 300 spaces in your camps. 10 out of 300 being a small amount to people could be considered as mostly negligible. That doesn't mean that the repair effect won't make some difference, but a massive difference... I don't know about that.

    The reason some people might come to different conclusions as to the weighting of the battle huts is that they may be looking at more variables. Such as the extra beam on the inferno, poison bomb's effects, range, splash damage, and the new lvl dps over the entire amount of the big defenses hit points. The point of a discussion isn't so that we all jump on the same bandwagon, but that we try to look at every aspect and every angle and every avenue. That way we are less likely to overlook something.

    So let's look at the numbers again. For the Inferno we have +12dps times 5 beams times 3 towers equals 180, then we add the new 6th beam at 105dps for 3 towers equals 315dps. 180dps plus 315dps equals 495dps. +400hp * 3 towers equals 1200hp. The eagle is just +15dps and +400hp. The scatters is +20dps * 2 scatters equals 40dps and +600hp * 2 scatters equals 1200hp. The poison bomb does +40dps. Totals are 550dps and 2800hp.
    Battle huts are 80dps * 5 equals 400 dps and +750hp * 5 equals 3750hp.

    Big 3 + poison bomb lvl3 Battle huts lvl2
    dps 550dps > 400dps
    hp 2800hp < 3750hp
    splash Eagle 5/hit, scatters 40-60/hit, poison 40dps >
    repair < 50-250hp/s
    range 10-50 > 7

    Well well well, the picture wasn't quite as clear as we all thought...for either side. I think the weight leans slightly towards the big 3, but those battle huts with the hit points and repair effect could be a headache in some instances. The battle hut stats at level 4 do start to look formidable.

    Anyway, what I don't understand is why people keep using the term "healing" for the builder's ability. LoL
    If you had actually understood what we have all been saying, you would not have posted that table as it is. It is only changes that matter for weighting.

    There is no change to the range of the big 3, so that should not be included. One could even argue the other way, since builder huts had no range before. And the only thing that could be considered a change to the splash damage is the poison.

    And if you think 10% of your army is negligible, then you must be an absolutely super attacker. Few of us finish an attack with anything like that much army left, even when we get a triple or a time fail.

    If you want to believe weaponising the builder huts to be worth less than upgrading the big 3, please continue to do so. Supercell think otherwise, from the apparent weighting, and I think they are right in that.

    The HP is greater, and if you treat the healing (or repair if you prefer the term) as a subtraction from the attackers DPS (which is what it effectively is), then the DPS is also higher. To me, that makes them worth more.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercfovia87 View Post
    Well then the Archer example is a bad example in this case, because there is no way Archer could even get close to Builder Huts without first getting shot at, unless you are bringing so many Archers that the Builder Huts is unable to counter it. So your example is flawed and not making any point to support the weakness of Builder Hut in your opinion. For instance, one might argue, Lava Hound is dealing lesser damage than the Repair per Second of a Builder Hut, thus Builder Hut is worth more than 30 housing space. See that's the invalidity of using such example.


    Now, the Repair per Seconds is negligible ?
    Let's go for an example of Scattershot vs Max Royal Champion
    Max Scattershot : HP 4,800
    Max Royal Champion : DPH 696

    So Max RC need 7 Hits to destroy Max Scattershot, or in other words, 8.4 seconds.
    During that 8.4 seconds a Level 2 Builder Hut could repair up to 500 HP.
    Which means, now RC require to use 8 hits to destroy a Max Scattershot instead of 7 hits, 0.8 seconds more. If you percentage it, that's around 10% more time needed. I don't know whether that's negligible for you, but the stats say that Repair HP means more attack/time required (around 10-20%) for your troops to destroy those buildings. And we have 5 of them Builder Huts that can be stack to cover several same buildings.
    It never ceases to amaze me how simple concepts go right over peoples heads in this forum. The point of the archer example was to show that if you were doing a queen walk and a builder started repairing a building near the outside that all you would need to do was drop two archers to negate that repairing effect. Where as your lava hound example really doesn't prove anything except that for 30 housing spaces, it has a very weak attack.

    For your second point, I never said the repair effect made no difference. I said it was mostly negligible meaning that most of the time it would have a small effect, but on occasion it could make an impact. So in your example what you are saying is that the RC requires one additional hit, so that is 1.2 seconds. So you tell me if an additional 1.2s out of 3 minutes is a lot or not. Also you do realize that you have pets and 3 additional heroes and 300 camp space and cc troops right. One last thing, where are you getting the 500hp repair from? Check your numbers again.

  9.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by Redrosetentoes View Post
    For your second point, I never said the repair effect made no difference. I said it was mostly negligible meaning that most of the time it would have a small effect, but on occasion it could make an impact. So in your example what you are saying is that the RC requires one additional hit, so that is 1.2 seconds. So you tell me if an additional 1.2s out of 3 minutes is a lot or not.
    It isn't about whether it makes a difference in the context of the 3 minutes, unless your attack was going to be very close to a time fail.

    It is about the fact that means an extra 1.2s of your RC coming under fire from one or more (usually more) other defences. Which then also means she is that much slower starting to hit the next defence, and that may also take an extra hit.

    Also you do realize that you have pets and 3 additional heroes and 300 camp space and cc troops right.
    Completely irrelevant. That is just as true whether you upgrade the "big 3" or your builder huts, and this is about wheher their imputed weight is valid or not.

    One last thing, where are you getting the 500hp repair from? Check your numbers again.
    Yeah, I think he got that wrong, it should have been 400. But that still means an extra hit is required.

    7 * 696 = 4,872. Max scatter has 4,800, so an additional 400 takes it up to 5200.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redrosetentoes View Post
    It never ceases to amaze me how simple concepts go right over peoples heads in this forum. The point of the archer example was to show that if you were doing a queen walk and a builder started repairing a building near the outside that all you would need to do was drop two archers to negate that repairing effect. Where as your lava hound example really doesn't prove anything except that for 30 housing spaces, it has a very weak attack.

    For your second point, I never said the repair effect made no difference. I said it was mostly negligible meaning that most of the time it would have a small effect, but on occasion it could make an impact. So in your example what you are saying is that the RC requires one additional hit, so that is 1.2 seconds. So you tell me if an additional 1.2s out of 3 minutes is a lot or not. Also you do realize that you have pets and 3 additional heroes and 300 camp space and cc troops right. One last thing, where are you getting the 500hp repair from? Check your numbers again.
    Oh because you everyone pockets a few archers for just this purpose and the said buildings being repaired are easily reached right? This is a false equivalency.
    Trust me, the huts are super annoying and can be outright devastating and most I'm facing in legends aren't even maxed yet. They are a triple threat, they add overall HP to a base which means more time is required to destroy the base, they also now do damage, which means your army will die faster then to top if all off they constantly repair buildings which can negate/repair quake damage (nerf to quake users) as well as bring up buildings that might be clinging by a sliver back to full health.

    Trust me they are worth it.

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