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  1. #251
    Senior Member blazeaxel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cryo0320 View Post
    Recruitment tool needs some massive changes , it gives us everything except for the fact that the people we get in the tool have different languages than us .
    Clash is a international game being played in literally every single country on the world ( i might be wrong but at least 170+ countries have people who play clash , this causes problems as people who speak spanish might find people who speak Arabic , and so on .
    We need a country filter , like same country or something , as clash of clans already sees your IP address this feature will be easy to make.
    Some other changes required
    2) Add ability to invite from the tool screen only , i hate when i got to go to somebody's profile just to invite them
    I don't like the 2nd feature you mentioned at all. I have many friends who play clash, and i want to invite them into my clan. It will just make it harder for me to find them. It is much better if the invite button is away from the visit button.
    Last edited by blazeaxel; March 3rd, 2021 at 09:51 AM.

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  2.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #252
    Darian[Supercell]'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cryo0320 View Post
    Recruitment tool needs some massive changes , it gives us everything except for the fact that the people we get in the tool have different languages than us .
    Clash is a international game being played in literally every single country on the world ( i might be wrong but at least 170+ countries have people who play clash , this causes problems as people who speak spanish might find people who speak Arabic , and so on .
    We need a country filter , like same country or something , as clash of clans already sees your IP address this feature will be easy to make.
    Some other changes required -

    1) Some specific achievements ( like trophy case ) earned by a player , which shows activeness ( daily , every 2 days etc ) , farmed this x amount of gold in x amount of hours , if a person has been active for more than 1.5 years they get veteran role etc ( notice i said active for 1.5 years , not that account's age is 1.5 years )
    Active Donator is the person gives 500 donations per day ( i know its less but 500 is still something )
    2) Add ability to invite from the tool screen only , i hate when i got to go to somebody's profile just to invite them
    3) add ability to search based on townhall and also remove people without leagues ( this is an option )
    4) Clan War tag earned if someone has got at least 4 stars every war
    Same for War league
    and so on
    5) Allow ability to chose "at least 70% of the base maxed" to find players , this way we can find non-rushed players too , most of the time i found people who were really rushed and everything

    Thanks
    Most of these are simply too arbitrary and it's clear these are based on what your needs are but will unlikely suit the rest of the game's needs. When I say "arbitrary" I'm not referring to the numbers part, but the criteria and reasons for these items.

    For example, let's look at number 5: "at least 70% of base maxed". It's not the 70% that's the issue, it's designating what exactly this should be based on. Do buildings need to be at a certain level? Or just a certain number of them maxed? Because if you're creating a calculator to determine what percentage of the base is maxed, it can be approached by leveling all the Defenses to 70% of max, or just 70% of them to 100% max. There's a big difference between the two and ultimately this is what led to engineered bases, when you set mathematical criteria to certain aspects of the game.

    My TH13 is not even close to max so my base would fall under the 70% max. That doesn't mean my base is rushed. Creating a metric like this would allow players to game various systems in a way we don't intend.
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  3. #253

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darian[Supercell] View Post
    Let's talk badges then. It could just be that I'm not seeing the merits of how earning badges would be beneficial but I'd love to hear why you think it would work.
    To be clear we're talking about badges for the player being searched. Not for clans; and nothing affecting the player DOING the search for recruits - which is what you were talking to Judo about - we have no objection to people searching for whatever they want. The issue is with the individual players being found by the search having inappropriate badges.

    Taking a step back, when someone applies to my clan I'll look at some basic stuff such as TH and heroes. But then war stars as an indicator of whether they have decent war experience - of course it doesn't prove they're good, but it's the best we've got. Someone with 3000 war stars is a better bet than a TH13 with 30. Then a look at Friend-in-Need to see it's sensible. And there are other achievement stats that can be useful, perhaps not so much for me, but might be a priority for other clans (games, CWL stars, loot amounts etc...) Nice and Tidy gives some indication of time playing. etc.

    We can't specify that in the search, but I think most people are using the badges as a kind of proxy. If I specify War/CWL/??? then I'm hoping to get war players (see the search in my first post, for example). When the system then returns TH13s with <100 war stars it's meh! In my post I listed the first 15 found - of which 9 I would always reject just from their war stars without looking any further. On the other hand if the war badge required completing that achievement (1000 *s) then only 1 of those 9 could have used the badge, so 6 of the 7 would have had plausible war stars (not speaking English or being clan leader is another matter)

    What I'd LIKE to be able to do is set filters based on achievement scores. And I imagine many players would. Eg war stars >= x, CWL stars >= x. Some clans would like to filter to clan games points >= x or heroic heist >= x or legend trophies >= x. When we try the search and see the badges it feels like filtering to war-badged players or clan-games-badged players is close enough. But the results don't match the promise.

    As a specific test I just searched for Active Daily (I think - it might have been donator) badge. Basically an irrelevant badge. And noted down the war stars of the first 10 results: 1704, 436, 524, 353, 733, 40, 1299, 115, 1393, 41. I then added Clan War badge to the search and repeated and got: 147, 523, 753, 149, 592, 88, 616, 24, 172, 181.
    So average war stars with just the Active Daily badge: 664
    Average war stars with Clan War badge added: 324
    And I promise I only ran this once and didn't do any other tests firsts - this wasn't a cherry picked result. It must surely have been a fluke, but it's a good example of how adding a badge seems to do the think end of not much in terms of actually finding the right sort of player.

    I would stress, that I'd prefer to be able to filter by actual player stats. And if that was possible keeping badges as an unearned thing that players could use to express their intent would be useful. Badges for a soft filter of player intentions, achievement stats for a hard-nosed filter of what players have actually done in the game. But since badges is what we've got people are therefore asking for badges to be linked to something meaningful, so at least they'd be a crude stats filter.

    PS - I didn't count, but of the 20 players I found above using the "Active Daily" badge it felt like the vast majority were grey shields, no donations, no attacks

  4. #254
    I'm still not sure to get why adding the country parameter in both player and clan side (for example as a clan/player label) in the recruitment tool is a problem. Moreover the game already has a list of about 265 locations available so Supercell had to take this decision already.

    Considering the language based filter, I found the "there is way too many languages in the world" a bit an easy escape to the problem. I would ask differently: how many languages the official in-game support provides? over 6000? I'm sure the in-game support had to reduce this list, right?

    Maybe a combination of both? country AND language, country OR language, ONLY country, ONLY language, both OFF
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  5.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #255
    Darian[Supercell]'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OnyxDS View Post
    To be clear we're talking about badges for the player being searched. Not for clans; and nothing affecting the player DOING the search for recruits - which is what you were talking to Judo about - we have no objection to people searching for whatever they want. The issue is with the individual players being found by the search having inappropriate badges.

    Taking a step back, when someone applies to my clan I'll look at some basic stuff such as TH and heroes. But then war stars as an indicator of whether they have decent war experience - of course it doesn't prove they're good, but it's the best we've got. Someone with 3000 war stars is a better bet than a TH13 with 30. Then a look at Friend-in-Need to see it's sensible. And there are other achievement stats that can be useful, perhaps not so much for me, but might be a priority for other clans (games, CWL stars, loot amounts etc...) Nice and Tidy gives some indication of time playing. etc.

    We can't specify that in the search, but I think most people are using the badges as a kind of proxy. If I specify War/CWL/??? then I'm hoping to get war players (see the search in my first post, for example). When the system then returns TH13s with <100 war stars it's meh! In my post I listed the first 15 found - of which 9 I would always reject just from their war stars without looking any further. On the other hand if the war badge required completing that achievement (1000 *s) then only 1 of those 9 could have used the badge, so 6 of the 7 would have had plausible war stars (not speaking English or being clan leader is another matter)

    What I'd LIKE to be able to do is set filters based on achievement scores. And I imagine many players would. Eg war stars >= x, CWL stars >= x. Some clans would like to filter to clan games points >= x or heroic heist >= x or legend trophies >= x. When we try the search and see the badges it feels like filtering to war-badged players or clan-games-badged players is close enough. But the results don't match the promise.

    As a specific test I just searched for Active Daily (I think - it might have been donator) badge. Basically an irrelevant badge. And noted down the war stars of the first 10 results: 1704, 436, 524, 353, 733, 40, 1299, 115, 1393, 41. I then added Clan War badge to the search and repeated and got: 147, 523, 753, 149, 592, 88, 616, 24, 172, 181.
    So average war stars with just the Active Daily badge: 664
    Average war stars with Clan War badge added: 324
    And I promise I only ran this once and didn't do any other tests firsts - this wasn't a cherry picked result. It must surely have been a fluke, but it's a good example of how adding a badge seems to do the think end of not much in terms of actually finding the right sort of player.

    I would stress, that I'd prefer to be able to filter by actual player stats. And if that was possible keeping badges as an unearned thing that players could use to express their intent would be useful. Badges for a soft filter of player intentions, achievement stats for a hard-nosed filter of what players have actually done in the game. But since badges is what we've got people are therefore asking for badges to be linked to something meaningful, so at least they'd be a crude stats filter.

    PS - I didn't count, but of the 20 players I found above using the "Active Daily" badge it felt like the vast majority were grey shields, no donations, no attacks
    There are a few underlying reasons why earning badges would be problematic. For starters, not all stats have been tracked from the beginning of the game apart from the ones that contribute to Achievements. So that would mean if a player wanted to earn a specific badge, then everyone would have to start from ground zero on that particular badge. That's not very efficient if you're trying to find someone immediately who meets your criteria on that particular attribute.

    We have some limited tracking ability but the ability to attach those stats to individual players would be so query intense that it would bog down the database just to keep track of every person's stats. Now multiply that by the number of badges you'd want players to be able to earn.

    Although many of the stats you want are tied to various Achievements and those could be tied to earned badges, there are many that could not.

    Not saying it's impossible, just a lot of challenges to overcome to make it as effective and useful as players envision. Therefore, why it was simpler to just let players select which badges they want to use voluntarily.
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  6. #256
    Forum Contender PaluEF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darian[Supercell] View Post
    .. Therefore, why it was simpler to just let players select which badges they want to use voluntarily...
    How about, to trim out the inactive bases and players not looking to move, reset the flags at a certain frequency (weekly like support creator, monthly?).
    So when performing a search filtered on certain flags, at least the players found would have selected them recently (assuming the search tool uses them in a somewhat high priority).

  7.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #257
    Darian[Supercell]'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaluEF View Post
    How about, to trim out the inactive bases and players not looking to move, reset the flags at a certain frequency (weekly like support creator, monthly?).
    So when performing a search filtered on certain flags, at least the players found would have selected them recently (assuming the search tool uses them in a somewhat high priority).
    Already flagged as something to look into. Bulletpoints #3: https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...1#post12752915
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  8. #258
    Millennial Club Rizzob's Avatar
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    Here's another way to look at the problem: a large majority of potential available recruits for your clan will turn out to be duds for one reason or another. There's a reason they're clanless. The same was true in the days of global. One of the advantages global had is that you could "fail fast" - you could find out immediately whether they would join or not, and you could move on.

    Rather than trying to meet everyone's varying and, in many cases, too high, expectations, what if there were ways to get to "no" faster?

    How about something like this for a workflow? You still search as you do today, but instead of sending an invite as you do today (although it is still an option), you could temporarily bookmark a player from your search results. These bookmarks expire after a reasonable timeframe (maybe a week?). But, you can look at your bookmarked players at any time, and see if any of them are online. If a bookmarked player is online, you can send an "instant invite". This invite expires after a short but reasonable amount of time (20 minutes?), and you are notified if the invite is declined (and you can not invite that player again if this happens). If they accept, you can engage them in the clan chat.

    I admit, it's a half-baked thought - I'm sure this can be abused in ways I haven't thought of yet. But, it would help with use cases such as "I want to start a war and need two more players now", or "Clan games or CWL is starting soon, and I need people now", or "I'm inviting people, but I want to know they're active". And, it doesn't throw away any of the existing functionality, it just gives a different way to proceed with invites. And, it can happen in parallel with any improvements to the search portion of the tool.
    Last edited by Rizzob; March 3rd, 2021 at 02:23 PM. Reason: added blurb about active bases

  9. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by Darian[Supercell] View Post
    Let's talk badges then. It could just be that I'm not seeing the merits of how earning badges would be beneficial but I'd love to hear why you think it would work.
    I don't think they'd be nearly as good as actual filters, but for badges, one of the common complaints is someone searches for "active daily" and they get results that show players who have that badge. The problem is, many of them are terribly inactive. It is a time waster to have to go in and check their daily activity since you can't actually trust the badge. The same goes for active donator. It wastes time to go in and check each profile to see they actually rarely donate, even though they have that badge selected. This applies to many badges. It doesn't apply to all. For example, for war, I would want to know whether the person now wants in war/CWL, so that is the type of badge it makes total sense to set yourself, rather than earn.

    When I refer to time wasting, that is because the tool is very inefficient. Players send out many many invites before they get a response. So, how much time they have to spend on each of those invites is important. With a good filter system, or even with earned badges (some of them) I'd be more likely to see a list of players that I'm actually interested in inviting and I can then just invite them all. Instead, the way it works now, I have to go in and individually look at every single player, go through the whole list, and maybe find 2 that I will invite. It takes a long time to look into every player on the list, just to invite 2, knowing there is very little chance either of those 2 will respond so I have to do it again, 50 more times.

    It also is inefficient from the players' perspective who are getting recruited. They are getting invites from clans they have no interest in. So, when I talk of filters, I usually mention the players being able to filter who they get invites from. This is good for them and also good for the clans who would otherwise be wasting time inviting them. A player who wouldn't accept an invite from a level 5 clan shouldn't show up on that clan's search list. It wastes both of their time.

    Edit: as a follow-up to the post by Onyx, "war" is a toublesome one. I don't think that should be an "earned" badge even though I totally agree with the problem Onyx described. I think that problem is best addressed with a filter. When searching for players, Onyx should be able to limit his search to only players with over 500 war stars or whatever number he chooses. I don't think that problem is solved well with the badge being "earned" because I see that badge as signifying the player wants in war. If I was searching for a player and saw they had that badge selected, but their stars are very low, they are rushed, etc. then I know not to invite them since we wouldn't let them in our wars. On the other hand, if they have low war stars and/or are rushed but don't have the war badge selected, that suggests they don't want in war, so I would invite them. The badge serves a good purpose in that way. The same goes for CWL. I don't invite th12 or lower with the CWL badge selected since I know they can't join our CWLs. Now, it would be better if they never showed up on my search to begin with to save me time....
    Last edited by 2222; March 3rd, 2021 at 02:56 PM.

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  10. #260

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darian[Supercell] View Post
    There are a few underlying reasons why earning badges would be problematic. For starters, not all stats have been tracked from the beginning of the game apart from the ones that contribute to Achievements. So that would mean if a player wanted to earn a specific badge, then everyone would have to start from ground zero on that particular badge. That's not very efficient if you're trying to find someone immediately who meets your criteria on that particular attribute.
    ...
    Although many of the stats you want are tied to various Achievements and those could be tied to earned badges, there are many that could not.
    I get that earning badges is tricky, especially for some badges. However I see no reason why ALL badges need to be earned. There could be some starter badges (talkative...) which anyone can pick, and others which do need to be earned. That's a pretty common scenario in games: you get some options to start and unlock more as you go. And the selection of which are earned is actually driven by the practicalities of making them earnable.

    And for the mechanics I'd be quite happy just using achievement scores. Completing the 3* achievement in the closest matching achievement would be a starting point (albeit maybe not the ideal threshold in all cases, but it's simple)

    Not saying it's impossible, just a lot of challenges to overcome to make it as effective and useful as players envision. Therefore, why it was simpler to just let players select which badges they want to use voluntarily.
    Simpler, yes, but it doesn't matter if it's simple if it doesn't work. And from the player's viewpoint (at least this player) it doesn't. My example above is a very small sample and perhaps a fluke. But consider why I spent 5 minutes doing the test above... I was confident I was going to get nonsense. I expected the averages to be basically the same. The experience of the system is that selecting a badge such as "war" does nothing to pick war players.

    Here's a data question for you to ponder, which someone could pull off a copy of the player database in a minute or so: select players with TH>=11, accepting invites, grouped by (war stars/500), and count them. And do both for players with and without clan war badge selected. Then drop in a spreadsheet to turn the numbers into percentages and see the distribution of war stars in bands of 500. Do players who pick the war tag actually have any more experience of wars than those who don't? Or for other badges where there is some meaningful concrete data - is there actually any real correlation between the badge selection and what the data says?

    Generalising, though, I'd repeat what I said in my previous post: I don't actually want earned badges. I want to search by existing in-game stats (achievements, war stars, and things like attacks-this-season might be of interest to many clans). We don't got stat filters. We got badges. So what you'll see is suggestions on how to improve badges to make them work better - which is linking them to stats in some way. There's a strong filter on software suggestions - people make suggestions based on what the software currently does and what they can see; very few actually tell you what they want or can imagine what might be possible.

    And rambling on about badges... my clan is happily in a strong enough position we rarely need to recruit. But we might soon, and so during this thread I've been pondering the options. And I'm thinking plan A now is to try the recruitment tool, but specifically to select badges that are NOT the ones we want. I want war players. But I know selecting that doesn't work. I might experiment with other combinations that actually aren't really what we want, and I think there's a real chance that may work better. And I'm serious about this - if I try the search again for real I'm going to be lying to the system about what I'm looking for because I think that's probably going to get the best results. (Not quite sure what badges I will search for, I'll need to experiment a bit). There's just something wrong there!
    Last edited by OnyxDS; March 3rd, 2021 at 02:48 PM.

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