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  Click here to go to the first staff post in this thread.   Thread: Current meta is sooooooooo broken

  1. #111
    Forum Veteran jaronhudson15's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2222 View Post
    It is totally fine for you to want the game balanced for the competitive scene if that is what you partake in. It is equally fine for 99% of the other players to want it more balanced for how they play. SC has to decide which is more important to the game overall. It doesn't have to be as black and white as you make it, though. It doesn't have to be to the point where the top 1% have a 100% 3 star rate. When the top 1% have a 40% 3 star rate in CWL and the mere mortals like those in my clan have a 20% 3 star rate in CWL, we find it pretty fun. What we don't find fun is when we have a 0-10% 3 star rate. We hated back when th11 was max and it was impossible for us to 3 star. Each classic war we'd count the th11s and see which side had one more, that side won by one star. The kick while we were down was then the follow-up suggestion from SC that it must've been a good war / close match since only one star decided it, even though we knew the war was over before it started.
    That was when balance was actually pretty terrible. 3 stars were more from luck than anything when things were at that point. Right now, I think it's possible for anyone to get a 3 star, which, IMO, nullifies your entire argument.

    You are absolutely right that most players don't have the mindset you describe. I have zero interest in spending the time on clash it would take for me to be the best I could possibly be at it. Even if I was retired so I didn't have work obligations and even if I didn't have kids, so I didn't have all that time I spend with them and even if I wasn't married, so I didn't have all that time I spend with my wife...even if it was just me all by myself...there are other things in life I would prefer to spend more time on to get as good as I could get at it than a mobile game that may or may not still be here in 5 years.
    Believe me, I don't have nearly as much time as I did 1-5 years ago. My point is every time I'm on I try and perform the best attack possible, whether that's 10 minutes on a work day or maybe an hour to kill on a weekend. That should be what everyone wants if they want a 3 star. It really isn't that hard nowadays, which is why it boggles my mind when people say they're scrubs and can't get 3 stars. Why? Just plan a little bit and simply execute the attack.

    Now that you have acknowledged that most players don't play it like you, perhaps you can better understand why it isn't so easy for SC to balance it based on players like you.
    I only play for about 5-20 minutes throughout a whole day and sometimes I don't play for upwards of a week, but I still don't have the same issues anybody else really has. But, I think it's safe to say, based off of what I see, that a LOT of players don't play this game well, or at least by my standards. This IS a mobile app, and like I said, nobody actually wants to earn their 3 stars like they should.

    I've never understood the attitude of some players who are so proud of the many hours they spend playing this game, studying attacks, practicing over and over, mapping out strategies, some of them even cheating in various ways to get "practice" hits in, etc. and how those players somehow think other players who don't actually dedicate that time to this game are lesser in some way. It is fine to be proud of it if this is your passion, this is what you dedicate hours every day to, but it isn't so good to think others who spend their time on other interests are somehow beneath you.
    To be honest, I don't really get it, either. If people don't have anything else but to play videogames all day, that's whatever. They can afford to do that. It's usually an obsession if a person is THAT invested into a game and can afford to spend an insane amount of time playing; an amount that was not intended, hence why things like personal break timers exist, but that's a different topic.

    If there is a choice between the pro scene going away and the other 99.9% going away, it is easy to see which one would hurt the game more. It doesn't have to be that way, though. If SC had to make that choice, the choice would be easy, but SC doesn't have to make that choice. They may have to choose some things that aren't great for the pro scene, but they don't have to ruin it either.
    You're right, but then we have to discuss what pro players want and what an average player wants. We aren't really getting anywhere now stating which group should decide for balance. At this moment, the average player can be labeled as less experienced than someone in a competition. Do we really want less experienced players making decisions?

    Your percentage here makes no sense. 99% of the players can't "suck at the game." Compared to who? The top 1%? That is a faulty comparison. Instead, it just demonstrates how very good the top less than 1% is that treat this game more like a job.
    They aren't my percentages. There's just a top 1% and the rest is just 99%. According to you guys, the top 1% are the best of the best, and you're arguing against a stronger group making balance decisions. Yes, the game has millions of players. Only a few hundred thousand actually get to the top. That's usually how it works in EVERY sport in the world. Take Sumo wrestling for example. The top rank- out of all 702 professional wrestlers in Japan right now, only a few have the chance to make the top rank and the rest are below that. Sometimes none reach the highest rank. There have only been 72 wrestlers to EVER reach the highest rank. I think right now, only 2 wrestlers hold the highest sumo rank.

    That isn't to say that they have to change rules to make reaching the highest rank easier. They have to earn it. I think some of the same concept applies to Clash, or games in general if they're balanced enough.

    Besides, there could be much, much better players out there that simply don't do CWL. They might just do a couple normal wars a month and still crush bases.

  2. #112
    Forum Veteran jaronhudson15's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warios View Post
    You're the one advocating for a change of the current state of the game, reasoning it is to easy for the so called pro players. Right now Imo the game is in a good state, majority of players dont 3 star at the drop of a hat, and I am not asking for it to get easier, you want it harder. You should post your clan tag, let us mere mortals take a look at your war results on the third party sites, and see for ourselves how broken the game is with your clan constantly getting 100% wars with the current broken system.

    And what is this pro scene you are talking about? Professional means someone can earn a living with income gained from competition, how many people can say they are a PRO player of clash?
    Clash will never be a mainstream eSport, look at the 2019 worlds, they had to piggy back on a DOTA2 event, got a hour or 2 each day on the stage. If I recall they didn't even get to do the first wars of each BO on stage.

    And for YouTubers wasting their time, one of the biggest is Galadon 1.8 million subscribers , and pretty sure he caters to the masses, not the competitive player base. Do any of the competitive guys even come close?
    I'm mostly talking about Blizzard at the moment, but yes, I personally find things simple in this game, but it's apparent that many other can't say the same. I would opt not to make it any harder if people still struggle. I'll just find another game. For the pro scene, I'm just talking about the highest league in CWL, or the top 1% of players that tend to do very, very well at TH13.

    As for Galadon, he's just been around a long time. His content is probably aimed for younger audiences and I personally don't watch his stuff. The competitive guys actually have good content aimed at attacking better and not this weird click-baity stuffs like Galadon.

  3. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaronhudson15 View Post
    That was when balance was actually pretty terrible. 3 stars were more from luck than anything when things were at that point. Right now, I think it's possible for anyone to get a 3 star, which, IMO, nullifies your entire argument.



    Believe me, I don't have nearly as much time as I did 1-5 years ago. My point is every time I'm on I try and perform the best attack possible, whether that's 10 minutes on a work day or maybe an hour to kill on a weekend. That should be what everyone wants if they want a 3 star. It really isn't that hard nowadays, which is why it boggles my mind when people say they're scrubs and can't get 3 stars. Why? Just plan a little bit and simply execute the attack.



    I only play for about 5-20 minutes throughout a whole day and sometimes I don't play for upwards of a week, but I still don't have the same issues anybody else really has. But, I think it's safe to say, based off of what I see, that a LOT of players don't play this game well, or at least by my standards. This IS a mobile app, and like I said, nobody actually wants to earn their 3 stars like they should.



    To be honest, I don't really get it, either. If people don't have anything else but to play videogames all day, that's whatever. They can afford to do that. It's usually an obsession if a person is THAT invested into a game and can afford to spend an insane amount of time playing; an amount that was not intended, hence why things like personal break timers exist, but that's a different topic.



    You're right, but then we have to discuss what pro players want and what an average player wants. We aren't really getting anywhere now stating which group should decide for balance. At this moment, the average player can be labeled as less experienced than someone in a competition. Do we really want less experienced players making decisions?



    They aren't my percentages. There's just a top 1% and the rest is just 99%. According to you guys, the top 1% are the best of the best, and you're arguing against a stronger group making balance decisions. Yes, the game has millions of players. Only a few hundred thousand actually get to the top. That's usually how it works in EVERY sport in the world. Take Sumo wrestling for example. The top rank- out of all 702 professional wrestlers in Japan right now, only a few have the chance to make the top rank and the rest are below that. Sometimes none reach the highest rank. There have only been 72 wrestlers to EVER reach the highest rank. I think right now, only 2 wrestlers hold the highest sumo rank.

    That isn't to say that they have to change rules to make reaching the highest rank easier. They have to earn it. I think some of the same concept applies to Clash, or games in general if they're balanced enough.

    Besides, there could be much, much better players out there that simply don't do CWL. They might just do a couple normal wars a month and still crush bases.
    There is no-one on either side of this discussion suggesting that any rules need to be changed to make reaching the highest rank easier. IMO it isn’t and has never been the goal to reach some rank. It is however all about playability. Being successful (in this case tripling a base) is the goal and the frequency of that tripling matters too. The old TH11 days saw many players quit because no matter how hard they tried, they knew they would only get a double. They had no illusions of being some CoC god, they just wanted to triple at least more than one in 20 attacks.

    Today’s balance is pretty decent for the most part. Max TH players can get triples at a decent rate that keeps them vested in the game. Perhaps it is a bit too often at the upper tiers but that can be balanced and SC has done a good job overall in that regard. AS 2222 said, it doesnt have to be binary.

    As to only allowing experienced players to have input into balancing, experience is not the same skillset as the one required to keep a mobile game profitable and have vested longterm players. Two different areas of expertise as witnessed by the fact that you dont see all game designers at the top of all esports.
    Last edited by Tosti111; December 30th, 2020 at 06:42 PM.
    OP Defense: Any defense the poster doest’t like or know how to work around, nullifies their attack or denies them their rightful three star.

  4. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2222 View Post
    If anyone is wondering when the nerf will come, I will let you know ahead of time. I'm using it on a couple legends accounts (I go back and forth a bit because it frustrates me that I lose trophies with it). As soon as I get pretty good with it, the nerf will happen.
    I’m doing the same. What are you using as the back-end troops? The best luck I’ve had so far is with a modified version of the inferno drag + skeleton army, but I’ve tried a number of different comps. I haven’t tried barch yet though. Speaking of the barch example, Itzu had a nice video on it the other day, explaining that what the “barch” really does is just steer the heroes around the base by clearing outside buildings. It’s really the heroes that take out all the important buildings. So maybe the heroes are just as unbalanced as the blizzard?
    Last edited by rvMatt; December 30th, 2020 at 06:50 PM.

  5. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by jaronhudson15 View Post
    That was when balance was actually pretty terrible. 3 stars were more from luck than anything when things were at that point. Right now, I think it's possible for anyone to get a 3 star, which, IMO, nullifies your entire argument.



    Believe me, I don't have nearly as much time as I did 1-5 years ago. My point is every time I'm on I try and perform the best attack possible, whether that's 10 minutes on a work day or maybe an hour to kill on a weekend. That should be what everyone wants if they want a 3 star. It really isn't that hard nowadays, which is why it boggles my mind when people say they're scrubs and can't get 3 stars. Why? Just plan a little bit and simply execute the attack.



    I only play for about 5-20 minutes throughout a whole day and sometimes I don't play for upwards of a week, but I still don't have the same issues anybody else really has. But, I think it's safe to say, based off of what I see, that a LOT of players don't play this game well, or at least by my standards. This IS a mobile app, and like I said, nobody actually wants to earn their 3 stars like they should.



    To be honest, I don't really get it, either. If people don't have anything else but to play videogames all day, that's whatever. They can afford to do that. It's usually an obsession if a person is THAT invested into a game and can afford to spend an insane amount of time playing; an amount that was not intended, hence why things like personal break timers exist, but that's a different topic.



    You're right, but then we have to discuss what pro players want and what an average player wants. We aren't really getting anywhere now stating which group should decide for balance. At this moment, the average player can be labeled as less experienced than someone in a competition. Do we really want less experienced players making decisions?



    They aren't my percentages. There's just a top 1% and the rest is just 99%. According to you guys, the top 1% are the best of the best, and you're arguing against a stronger group making balance decisions. Yes, the game has millions of players. Only a few hundred thousand actually get to the top. That's usually how it works in EVERY sport in the world. Take Sumo wrestling for example. The top rank- out of all 702 professional wrestlers in Japan right now, only a few have the chance to make the top rank and the rest are below that. Sometimes none reach the highest rank. There have only been 72 wrestlers to EVER reach the highest rank. I think right now, only 2 wrestlers hold the highest sumo rank.

    That isn't to say that they have to change rules to make reaching the highest rank easier. They have to earn it. I think some of the same concept applies to Clash, or games in general if they're balanced enough.

    Besides, there could be much, much better players out there that simply don't do CWL. They might just do a couple normal wars a month and still crush bases.
    That it is possible for a max th13 who has played the game for years and put in the time needed to fully max his offense to get 3 stars nullifies nothing. I don't even know what argument you are referring to that you think is nullified by the fact that a player has the possible chance at three stars.

    When you say things like people don't want to "earn their 3 stars like they should" you are stating something as though it is fact and then arguing from that. Your statement, itself, is not truth. It is an opinion. It isn't false or true. It is your opinion that players should have to "earn" a 3 star. It is just as valid an opinion for players to think they should not have to put in work, practice, studying, etc. to "earn" three stars. There is nothing wrong with the opinion that a spammed less skilled attack should result in a 3 star now and then.

    Sumo wrestling and professional sports in general have nothing to do with the balance of Clash. Nothing.

    Of course I argue against the very best less than 1% making balance decisions. I'd argue just as strongly against the worst 1% making balance decisions too.

    If I criticize SC for balancing based on the top 1%, you ignore that, yet if I compliment them for NOT doing so, you think I'm just always defending SC. Face it, according to yourself, you are part of a very tiny elite fraction of players and you want the game balanced based on what would be best for you for selfish reasons. That isn't an insult. Almost everyone wants it balanced based on what would make it the most fun for them. The harder discussion is what is best for the game overall. That is what SC has to deal with.

    As I stated before, this is perhaps a rare time where they can nerf the blizzard to help the elite while not reducing much of the fun for the rest of us. I don't know if there is a problem with it or not. The CWL coming up should tell SC whether there is. If there is, they probably can just nerf superwiz while under invisibility without negatively impacting the rest of us.
    Last edited by 2222; December 30th, 2020 at 08:20 PM.

    Contact SC here. Click here for how trophies are calculated. Click here to see how war map placement of max halls is determined. An idea to improve legends here. I wish max players had a separate loot bank as described here. Caution, I often discuss for the sake of discussion and enjoy having my opinion challenged (or approved of) even when I care little about the actual issue. My balance wish: get rid of tornado trap, make it a decoration.

  6. #116
    Centennial Club KingDMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2222 View Post
    Almost everyone wants it balanced based on what would make it the most fun for them. The harder discussion is what is best for the game overall. That is what SC has to deal with.
    SC has already decided what's best for the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darian[Supercell] View Post
    Just because a person is good at a game doesn't mean they'd make a good game developer, just as a good game developer isn't necessarily the best at playing the game they make. We don't balance the game around the most hardcore competitive players. However, we do consult them and factor in their feedback when we do look at game balance.

    Balancing a game with so many parts requires more than just being able to be good at the game. There are so many aspects behind the scenes that are not considered, whether it's game economy, how it affects the wider player base, how it might affect future content, etc. But we don't solely rely on these players with regards to balance because that kind of balance is very single-minded in its approach: Can I beat this base?

    As new content is added, being able to balance the game becomes more and more complex in order to keep old troops and defenses relevant while still creating new troops, defenses, spells, etc. Because of that, sometimes offense will swing to the advantage and sometimes defense will as more balance changes are implemented. It is nearly impossible to create a perfectly balanced game with so many components.

  7.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #117
    Quote Originally Posted by jaronhudson15 View Post
    I grow tired of seeing suggestions for SC to balance for the "average" player. When any game is at a competitive state, that is the one thing you DON'T do. You can't balance the game around a kind of player that doesn't actually push the limits of this game. You can't cater to a weaker attacker because that limits what pro players can do in the long run. You can't make the game easier for a player that is unwilling to actually get better. I think 3 stars should be something that people have to strive for with dedication and experience, not something that is expected.

    THAT is why Clash has a competitive scene, because the game is just difficult enough for there to be one. I'm not a competitive player, but I get 3 stars more than 50% of the time.

    I think the big issue here is mindset. Whenever I play a videogame, my goal is to become the very best I can be at it and push the limits to what is possible. It's clear that a lot of players don't have that kind of mindset for Clash, and this is why there are discussions about who the game needs to be catered to.

    I want the game to be balanced for competitive scenes, because I want to be able to strive up to that excellence. You should all want to strive to that kind of excellence, and it sickens me to see players like Ajax sway away from this mindset. The whole point of videogames is to get good at them and have fun. It ruins the experience for everyone else who feels the same way if the game is catered to a group of people who aren't as willing as another.
    So it sickens you that we don't want to see the game die?

    Because it WOULD die if balance were catered mainly to that top tiny fraction of players.

    While it has the top end compet8itive element, that is not what generates millions of dollars per day for the company, and keeps those servers running.

    It is the average players that do that, and if Supercell don't keep those average players happy, there simply won't be a game.

  8.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #118
    Quote Originally Posted by jaronhudson15 View Post
    I would go as far as claiming the other 99% absolutely suck at this game, then, if this is what it comes down to.
    Insulting other players is not acceptable here. Please do not make similar statements again.

    If your idea of fun is when everybody is able to 3 star without trying as much due to a catering of such incompetence,
    You know this concept of "nobody". Well that is who has suggested any such thing. That would be no more fun than never being able to get a triple. In fact probably less.

    then the pro scene will disappear. I believe anyone can get good at this game to a high degree, but to stoop the balance for an average player kills off any real merit for the competitive scene.
    You may think there is no merit to the competitive scene, but those involved don't seem to agree.

    Here's where you don't understand- Anyone can do well if they actually care to do so.
    For some definitions of "do well", yes.

    For your definition, as expressed above, that is simply false. Most players just cannot ever be as good as you. They either don't have the coordination, or the ability to see everything they need to, or simply cannot devote enough time (and I don't mean they are unwilling to, I mean they can't if they want to continue working - without which they couldn't afford the device or internet to play on)


    That's kinda where this game is at in terms of balance and I think it's the most appropriate because of the fact that a pro scene actually exists. Every game has a top 1%, and it's always the same argument from people who just aren't as good as the game.

    If you think the game would die, then all of the youtubers are wasting their time. This isn't as casual as a game as it used to be, not since the game actually gained a competitive scene. You can't make things easier for people if said things are already possible.
    I really don't understand what you are trying to say here.

  9.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #119
    Quote Originally Posted by 2222 View Post
    If anyone is wondering when the nerf will come, I will let you know ahead of time. I'm using it on a couple legends accounts (I go back and forth a bit because it frustrates me that I lose trophies with it). As soon as I get pretty good with it, the nerf will happen.
    Can you wait until a few weeks after I get good with it then please

    Though that might take a while. I am getting more very high 2 stars with it, and more triples (one yesterday, one today with two attacks left - that is more tan an average week for me), but I'm also getting more 1 stars at the moment - a lot more.

  10. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by KingDMan View Post
    SC has already decided what's best for the game.
    I'd give a clever retort here like "please tell us then what the decision was" but the reality is there is no one decision. I've seen SC make balance changes that appear to be much more in favor of the elite and others that have not been. I do think it is clear SC has decided it is better for the game overall to have 3 star rates higher than they were back in the th11 days, but even most elite players probably agree with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajax View Post
    Can you wait until a few weeks after I get good with it then please

    Though that might take a while. I am getting more very high 2 stars with it, and more triples (one yesterday, one today with two attacks left - that is more tan an average week for me), but I'm also getting more 1 stars at the moment - a lot more.
    What I'm finding is when it's good its great. At this point for me it is high risk high reward, but so are a bunch of other strategies. That would be tough for me to use in CWL, but much easier to use for a second hit in classic war. I can see how the elite players who are better at analyzing a base design, pathing, etc. not to mention timing are much better at it than me. The problem with me relying on what they do, though, is they can make any decent attack strategy look outstanding.

    If we can bump our 3 star rate up to 30% and avoid one stars, we might finally make it out of Masters1 this month after over a year of trying. I'm not sure I will use blizzard, though, unless a base makes it obvious that it will work well.

    Contact SC here. Click here for how trophies are calculated. Click here to see how war map placement of max halls is determined. An idea to improve legends here. I wish max players had a separate loot bank as described here. Caution, I often discuss for the sake of discussion and enjoy having my opinion challenged (or approved of) even when I care little about the actual issue. My balance wish: get rid of tornado trap, make it a decoration.

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