TH13 time fails going up again?

[Ajax]

It's a cosmetic difference. Say you've got 1 archer left to kill a single cannon that's left protecting an elixir storage (nothing else left is left on the whole board). You're saying that if the cannon kills the archer 1 second before the end it's not a time fail, but if the archer kills the cannon and then doesn't have enough time to kill the storage it *is* a timefail ?! That's a pointless difference. The root cause of the failure is that too much of my army died earlier. Whether I end up completely wiped out or just too weakened to finish cleaning up is immaterial.

In that case, yes. But I would, of course still say that it is a time fail if the archer had killed the cannon but then ran out of time to kill the remaining storage.

Yes, some results would change if I had more time on the clock with my current army. But if I had more time on the clock I wouldn't use the same army, and many more results would change because of my now sturdier and slower army. Also, that "timefail" would change if my army had more hitpoints or healing or DPS (not just more time) and didn't die so much and killed stuff faster.

So basically, you are saying that if we had more time, or the army could hit harder or survive better, then that time fail would not have happened.

While you are, of course, correct, hat is also completely irrelevant. We aren't discussing what could have happened if things weren't as they are. Nor even whether things should be changed to stop this happening (FWIW, they shouldn't IMO). We are discussing simply whether time fails are happening.

Why don't we ever say something is an HP fail or DPS fail ?

Can you define one of those, in a way which can easily be judged when seeing the end of a battle?

If not, that explains why we don't. We can often easily that we would definitely have destroyed the base with the troops we have left - and in the marginal cases, we wouldn't describe it as a time fail.

The whole thing is a Wibbly wobbly, timey wimey all things interconnected mess.

A timefail is solved the same way as any old fail: die less and/or kill faster so you don't die first.

And?

Has anybody said anything different?

[obarthelemy]

Can you define one of those, in a way which can easily be judged when seeing the end of a battle?

If not, that explains why we don't. We can often easily that we would definitely have destroyed the base with the troops we have left - and in the marginal cases, we wouldn't describe it as a time fail.

1- because something is easier to see and characterize does not make it more real than less visible things. It's the same as skin color: the fact it's easy to see does not make it more important or meaningful than having hairs on the ears etc.. Rick and Morty has a funny episode where "race" is determined by whether your nipples are innies or outies.

2- Example of HP fail: regular goblins can't even reach a decently upgraded lvl 12 or 13 TH, they get killed by the built-in Yesla/Inferno. Witches and their skels get slaughtered by catapults.

3- example of damage fail: Giants. Put them up against a base with high walls and low defenses, and you'll call it a timefail, but it's a damage fail really.

My point is seeing a timefail through the prism of time doesn't help. Looking at what died (especially early), what took wrong turns (wild guess: the Queen and the Healers ^^), what you got wrong with spell/troop timing and placement is what helps. And those exact same things also help with non-timefails. You solve timefails exactly the same way you solve any other fail. Timefails don't exist.

[2222]

1- because something is easier to see and characterize does not make it more real than less visible things. It's the same as skin color: the fact it's easy to see does not make it more important or meaningful than having hairs on the ears etc.. Rick and Morty has a funny episode where "race" is determined by whether your nipples are innies or outies.

2- Example of HP fail: regular goblins can't even reach a decently upgraded lvl 12 or 13 TH, they get killed by the built-in Yesla/Inferno. Witches and their skels get slaughtered by catapults.

3- example of damage fail: Giants. Put them up against a base with high walls and low defenses, and you'll call it a timefail, but it's a damage fail really.

My point is seeing a timefail through the prism of time doesn't help. Looking at what died (especially early), what took wrong turns (wild guess: the Queen and the Healers ^^), what you got wrong with spell/troop timing and placement is what helps. And those exact same things also help with non-timefails. You solve timefails exactly the same way you solve any other fail. Timefails don't exist.

I think you're just arguing here to argue, because I think you know what people mean when they refer to a time fail. If I have a lot of troops left over, a lot of power left, but the time runs out, I'm calling it a time fail. It is a term of art, yet everyone in my clan will know what it means. Everyone in my clan will know I meant I still had a lot of power left, but I took too long. Maybe my start was too slow, maybe I needed a jump in a spot I got hung up, etc.

If your point was seeing the fail ONLY through the time prism doesn't help, that I'd agree with. However, claiming time is no issue at all, is not something I can agree with. And, the last point of "time fails don't exist" is just not true when it comes to a term of art like that.

[obarthelemy]

I think you're just arguing here to argue, because I think you know what people mean when they refer to a time fail. If I have a lot of troops left over, a lot of power left, but the time runs out, I'm calling it a time fail. It is a term of art, yet everyone in my clan will know what it means. Everyone in my clan will know I meant I still had a lot of power left, but I took too long. Maybe my start was too slow, maybe I needed a jump in a spot I got hung up, etc.

If your point was seeing the fail ONLY through the time prism doesn't help, that I'd agree with. However, claiming time is no issue at all, is not something I can agree with. And, the last point of "time fails don't exist" is just not true when it comes to a term of art like that.

I'm actually quite serious about this topic, because I, and now the players I'm helping, went/go through this kind of denial phase where fails are... due to time ? a time issue ? and that mis-informs the analysis and seems to mean the problems to fix aren't the exact same we had to fix to go from 0* to 1*, then from 1* to 2*.

If timefails are a thing, what are the other types of fails, and, most importantly, how are timefails uniquely different in how they happen and can be fixed ? I'd be more OK with big fails vs small fails: a big fail is when you died before the finish line, a small fail is when you reached the finish line but couldn't cross it because of the 999 cuts you had already received. I'd be OK calling a time fail if someone has to take a 30s break mid-attack to re-think their strategy or if your army gets to the end 2/3rds intact, but that's never the case. What happens is the exact same thing that happens when you fail a 0*, then at 1*, then at 2* by total annihilation, and what needs fixing is the exact same thing: better placement and timing of troops and spells.

I'm dropping the subject but, really, a timefail isn't a different type of fail than all the ones you've had before, just a smaller one of the exact same type. Unless you're slow at placing troops ^^

[Ajax]

My point is seeing a timefail through the prism of time doesn't help. Looking at what died (especially early), what took wrong turns (wild guess: the Queen and the Healers ^^), what you got wrong with spell/troop timing and placement is what helps. And those exact same things also help with non-timefails. You solve timefails exactly the same way you solve any other fail.

True. But nobody has argued otherwise.

Timefails don't exist.

False.

[2222]

I'm actually quite serious about this topic, because I, and now the players I'm helping, went/go through this kind of denial phase where fails are... due to time ? a time issue ? and that mis-informs the analysis and seems to mean the problems to fix aren't the exact same we had to fix to go from 0* to 1*, then from 1* to 2*.

If timefails are a thing, what are the other types of fails, and, most importantly, how are timefails uniquely different in how they happen and can be fixed ? I'd be more OK with big fails vs small fails: a big fail is when you died before the finish line, a small fail is when you reached the finish line but couldn't cross it because of the 999 cuts you had already received. I'd be OK calling a time fail if someone has to take a 30s break mid-attack to re-think their strategy or if your army gets to the end 2/3rds intact, but that's never the case. What happens is the exact same thing that happens when you fail a 0*, then at 1*, then at 2* by total annihilation, and what needs fixing is the exact same thing: better placement and timing of troops and spells.

I'm dropping the subject but, really, a timefail isn't a different type of fail than all the ones you've had before, just a smaller one of the exact same type. Unless you're slow at placing troops ^^

If you don't think time is ever an issue, then you are the one in denial and you're doing no service to your clanmates in claiming otherwise. There are many examples. One of the most common, is a time consuming warden walk. Where did I lose time? Did I start in an area with storages that slowed me up? Should I have started somewhere else or placed a few troops to help out on those storages? It is just one of many examples, though I find it to be one of the most common. Troop selection is another big time issue. My attack ended with a lot of power left, but the time ran out. Could I have replaced a yeti with something else that does faster damage? Was that a bad base to use superwitches on? Etc.

[obarthelemy]

If you don't think time is ever an issue, then you are the one in denial and you're doing no service to your clanmates in claiming otherwise. There are many examples. One of the most common, is a time consuming warden walk. Where did I lose time? Did I start in an area with storages that slowed me up? Should I have started somewhere else or placed a few troops to help out on those storages? It is just one of many examples, though I find it to be one of the most common. Troop selection is another big time issue. My attack ended with a lot of power left, but the time ran out. Could I have replaced a yeti with something else that does faster damage? Was that a bad base to use superwitches on? Etc.

I lol'ed at "Did I start in an area with storages that slowed me up?" that's exactly what is wrong with using the timefail label. Those storages won't go down faster if you tackle them later.

[2222]

I lol'ed at "Did I start in an area with storages that slowed me up?" that's exactly what is wrong with using the timefail label. Those storages won't go down faster if you tackle them later.

Wrong. They go down faster if something other than a slow warden is taking them on, delaying the entire start of the attack. It was one example, but a common one. Starting a warden walk in the wrong spot can take too much time. You're acting as though all troops just get dropped down at once.

[Jixson]

mhm.. lots of time fails. very painful

[eTrey]

VERY painful. Especially when it's a 99% 1-star (yes, that happened to me in legends a few days ago. Definitely a time fail). I think I time failed twice yesterday, and 2/6 so far are time fails today. (3 triples, one 1 star, because I got too slow with super minions. Sitting around 5575)