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  Click here to go to the first staff post in this thread.   Thread: Defining a Classic war mismatch

  1. #11
    Millennial Club Rizzob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2222 View Post
    In the past, clans could put th3s at the bottom and it would give them an advantage up top. For example, in this match I'm describing they would be happy to give up that bottom base if it gave them an advantage in the other 4 spots. The matchmaker changed, though, and it no longer works well. It is almost like the matchmaker just ignores extreme outliers like a th3 sitting at the bottom.
    I wish I could remember exactly where this was spelled out, but I seem to remember a couple of years ago they re-worked the matchmaker to mitigate against roster engineering. I specifically remember them saying that they would weight the top bases much more than the mid-level to bottom bases in the lineup.

    Maybe someone else remembers when this change was rolled out. I'm guessing they probably started using (and hiding) offensive weight around the same time.

    Hopefully I'm not imagining that.

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  2. #12
    Forum Contender joshsgrandad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rizzob View Post
    I wish I could remember exactly where this was spelled out, but I seem to remember a couple of years ago they re-worked the matchmaker to mitigate against roster engineering. I specifically remember them saying that they would weight the top bases much more than the mid-level to bottom bases in the lineup.

    Maybe someone else remembers when this change was rolled out. I'm guessing they probably started using (and hiding) offensive weight around the same time.

    Hopefully I'm not imagining that.
    Not sure about official confirmation on how the MMA views the breakdown, but here are the 2 big changes to the algorithm.. https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...ch-2016-Update and https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...n-Cart-balance.

    The former was when they made defence the major factor with the war search, thus leading to defenceless bases, and the latter was when they rolled back the clock to reapply offence as a more equal contributor to war weight.

    There have been multiple discussions on the MMA workings, with many varied opinions within the community, but cant recall any official input from SC..
    If memory serves, a big change to matching occurred at the time of TH12 drop, in Q2 (June) 2018, when the build all policy was introduced.. We moved away from roster engineering around this point, as those low fillers were no longer diluting the oppo roster.
    So maybe this time frame is a good place to start digging for info.

    But as a general rule, anything that adds to attack or defence carries war weight in classic war.. Only passive structures are for free.
    With cwl, the only consideration we need is defence, since there is no MMA in place.. Although a one time weighting of the heaviest enrolled accounts is used to seed a new clan into a tier.. Whether this is war weight or gold (defensive) weight is open to debate.

  3. #13
    Forum Veteran GaMe ChAnGeR1's Avatar
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    My near-max 8(both offence and defence) without BK is placed below mid 7s in war. Can't imagine what would be the war weight of the 1-cannon bases then. The old engineered bases does still work, to an extent.
    Last edited by GaMe ChAnGeR1; November 18th, 2020 at 07:27 AM.

  4. #14
    Forum Contender joshsgrandad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GaMe ChAnGeR1 View Post
    My near-max 8(both offence and defence) without BK is placed below mid 7s in war. Can't imagine what would be the war weight of the 1-cannon bases then. The old engineered bases does still work, to an extent.
    Well max 8 is 58k gold weight..
    Cant remember TH7 weight, but think its around 45-50k..
    I have a 7 with no upgrades from TH6 but a level 3 king and its 31k gold weight.. Would have to check if I have a 7 thats more advanced but without king.

    Your experience suggests royals carry heavy defensive weight.. Remember the war map is defensive based only, not war weight.
    So around 18k missing just in 10 levels of King.. Then probably double that for war weight, since its counted in offence too..
    Seems excessive.

  5. #15
    Forum Veteran GaMe ChAnGeR1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joshsgrandad View Post
    Well max 8 is 58k gold weight..
    Cant remember TH7 weight, but think its around 45-50k..
    I have a 7 with no upgrades from TH6 but a level 3 king and its 31k gold weight.. Would have to check if I have a 7 thats more advanced but without king.

    Your experience suggests royals carry heavy defensive weight.. Remember the war map is defensive based only, not war weight.
    So around 18k missing just in 10 levels of King.. Then probably double that for war weight, since its counted in offence too..
    Seems excessive.
    Yes, BK seems to be heavy in terms of defensive weight even when it is near-useless at TH7 and 8.

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by GaMe ChAnGeR1 View Post
    My near-max 8(both offence and defence) without BK is placed below mid 7s in war. Can't imagine what would be the war weight of the 1-cannon bases then. The old engineered bases does still work, to an extent.
    There is no need to reference your offense, since the map order is by defense only. The king does have defensive weight, so there is a reason it would be lower on the map without a king. As for whether the engineered bases work, you can't just look at whether the weight is lower. The weight is definitely lower when you build less defenses. That hasn't changed. The impact they have on the matchmaker is what has changed.

    Contact SC here. Click here for how trophies are calculated. Click here to see how war map placement of max halls is determined. An idea to improve legends here. I wish max players had a separate loot bank as described here. Caution, I often discuss for the sake of discussion and enjoy having my opinion challenged (or approved of) even when I care little about the actual issue. My balance wish: get rid of tornado trap, make it a decoration.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2222 View Post
    There is no need to reference your offense, since the map order is by defense only.
    Though I am personally a believer in assuming gold weight as a measure of defensive weight, that last bit is only correct if the assumption holds. To keep everyone onboard with something we can agree on, it's probably more correct to say:

    Map order is by gold and/or resources loot.
    Just finished CWL? Post your data here:

    https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...ght-compendium

  8. #18
    Forum Contender joshsgrandad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Munitor View Post
    Though I am personally a believer in assuming gold weight as a measure of defensive weight, that last bit is only correct if the assumption holds. To keep everyone onboard with something we can agree on, it's probably more correct to say:

    Map order is by gold and/or resources loot.
    Nope.. I am good with map order is by gold weight.

    To elaborate, I am more concerned with matching effects rather than "weight"..
    Our last war, the gold weights were very similar.. Us 1564k total weight to their 1622k gold weight on a 20v war size..
    But we had 2 12s close to max, and they had 2 with some level 1 defences.. That allowed them to sneak a 122k TH13 containing scatters with us gaining an extra TH11.
    Apart from that, hall colours were pretty equal.. But the different look and feel of the two rosters was pretty startling.
    Will tot up hero levels and edit, but we won the war 55-44, even though we had a bad day and struggled with some of their bases.. Guess maxer trumps rusher yet again lol

    What I am saying, is same as 2222 has said, and I guess what Puma is looking to get to grips with..
    You cant measure gold weight.. Okay, defensive weight.. and consider it a match.
    Offense has a probable equal measure in the war draw..
    Matching criteria (breakdown) has an effect on the matching process..
    Hero levels have both a direct and indirect effect on the matchmaking, due to size/weight, and also level pattern eg big heroes will usually draw big heroes, and baby ones will tend to drop rushers on the other side of the map.

    Matchmaking is a complex process that guys like Sam and Major have spent years perfecting for their streaker clans.. I have had the pleasure of visiting and chatting with both.. Really nice guys.. And also the pleasure of playing with Major (although Puma has far more experience than me)..
    But I only just touched the tip of the iceberg, even after months of playing with a roster on my own.
    Last edited by joshsgrandad; November 18th, 2020 at 04:58 PM.

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Munitor View Post
    Though I am personally a believer in assuming gold weight as a measure of defensive weight, that last bit is only correct if the assumption holds. To keep everyone onboard with something we can agree on, it's probably more correct to say:

    Map order is by gold and/or resources loot.
    Which is reflective of defensive power, not offense. However, I agree we don't know for sure if that exactly reflects the "defensive weight" considered by the matchmaker and we definitely do know there is much more to the match than simply adding up defense and offense weight.

    Contact SC here. Click here for how trophies are calculated. Click here to see how war map placement of max halls is determined. An idea to improve legends here. I wish max players had a separate loot bank as described here. Caution, I often discuss for the sake of discussion and enjoy having my opinion challenged (or approved of) even when I care little about the actual issue. My balance wish: get rid of tornado trap, make it a decoration.

  10. #20
    Forum Veteran GaMe ChAnGeR1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2222 View Post
    The impact they have on the matchmaker is what has changed.
    Well it usually draws rushed-mid TH7 opponents and somehow seems to decrease overall war weight and gives easy opponent clans in war. So, its profit for me lol.
    Last edited by GaMe ChAnGeR1; November 18th, 2020 at 05:21 PM.

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