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Thread: Are Engineered bases still a thing ?

  1. #21
    Forum All-Star joshsgrandad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PapaTroll View Post
    This was what the forum believed, with isolated exceptions. The superstitious belief in "engineer flags" was widespread, and SC allowed the story to run unchallenged for about a year. Finally, in an interview, Darian had to address the question and confirmed that there is NO flag that directly causes engineers to match only engineers.

    Yet ghosts of this belief remain. Whenever someone mentions a tough time matching, some forumite will ask about engineered bases. Engineered bases can be used in roster engineering, but you can roster engineer with max bases too. Roster engineering can cause long war searches. But just having engineered bases causes me no problems in war matching. I frequently use 4 to 5 engineers in 25v25 and 30v30 and match in under an hour twice a week, every week.

    We know nothing about how the MMA really works, but my theory (today) hinges on a two stage match. Clans are matched first on total weight (offense plus defense). Then in a second stage, there is a round of "lane checks" which matches weights of mirrors. If a match fails too many lane checks then it is rejected and the search continues. The second stage explains the difficulty of matching manicured rosters. There appears to be a lot of tolerance in the lane check, and obviously it allows a percentage of bases to fail or we would never get any match. It may even be weighted towards the top of the roster, but that is really pushing the speculation.

    I admit this is speculation. But it is a theory that fits what is happening in the game. It explains what I see better than the "engineer flag" story ever did.
    Yeah papa.. My own theories run somewhat close to what you are describing..
    Maybe not so specific as matching mirrors and lanes..
    But something has to make sense of all the variables contained within the accounts, otherwise weight only would spit out anything..
    And our balanced, yet stretched roster almost always makes sense, even if it cant be perfect

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by joshsgrandad View Post
    The beauty of this game is the diversity contained within it mate.
    Whatever your poison, you go enjoy it.

    But the forums are full of all types of players.. Its what makes community forum so interesting.. And with a little reading and interest, educational.
    So no mate, engineering bases are not gone, although the face of engineering has evolved beyond comprehension.

    Same as the perma max invulnerability, the low defence high offence advantage has also been phased out due to changes in the MMA, and indeed the progression path rules in the case of lop siders..
    But that doesnt mean engineering is gone.. Indeed those that know how weights are applied, and know how the matching patterns work, are still thriving.
    The 3 clans I mentioned are on 411, 276, and 136 win streak as we speak.. And my money is on the former breaking the all time best streak, currently at 518, compiled by Bangkok B @War.

    Hopefully they dont get an unlucky war draw, make a mistake, or get found by hunters..
    Otherwise all those years of planning and meticulous attention to detail ends in one fatal swoop.
    Sam is a nice guy, hope it keeps rolling for the foreseeable future for him.

    With that in mind.. Time to let things quiet back down.. Publicity aint good.
    Thank you for the compliment mate, I think with the improved accuracy of current MMA it is even better for well planned engineered clan to keep the advantage, except they face other engi or hunters clan, we did face some engi, both seriously try or just casuals, probably 10% or slightly less then that of our match, luckily we still keep the streak, but in general current accuracy of MMA is should be in best ever from the view of Casuals, maxer or engineered, agree with Puma except th12&13 differentiation, but I think I already explain the weight gap is too low, actually th11 & 12 also has similar problem, a well manicured th12 will match th11 most of the time, but other then that it is all good.

    Quote Originally Posted by PapaTroll View Post
    This was what the forum believed, with isolated exceptions. The superstitious belief in "engineer flags" was widespread, and SC allowed the story to run unchallenged for about a year. Finally, in an interview, Darian had to address the question and confirmed that there is NO flag that directly causes engineers to match only engineers.

    Yet ghosts of this belief remain. Whenever someone mentions a tough time matching, some forumite will ask about engineered bases. Engineered bases can be used in roster engineering, but you can roster engineer with max bases too. Roster engineering can cause long war searches. But just having engineered bases causes me no problems in war matching. I frequently use 4 to 5 engineers in 25v25 and 30v30 and match in under an hour twice a week, every week.

    We know nothing about how the MMA really works, but my theory (today) hinges on a two stage match. Clans are matched first on total weight (offense plus defense). Then in a second stage, there is a round of "lane checks" which matches weights of mirrors. If a match fails too many lane checks then it is rejected and the search continues. The second stage explains the difficulty of matching manicured rosters. There appears to be a lot of tolerance in the lane check, and obviously it allows a percentage of bases to fail or we would never get any match. It may even be weighted towards the top of the roster, but that is really pushing the speculation.

    I admit this is speculation. But it is a theory that fits what is happening in the game. It explains what I see better than the "engineer flag" story ever did.
    Very nice explanation Papa, I believe what u explain is correct, but u have to add several other parameter like clan wide off def ratio, Top TH match emphasized etc.

    And the most important thing is MM clearly has a few phases, the first phase is at 5-6 minutes, it happen when most parameter within matched clan is very close, then it will go to phase 2, and at 23 minutes mark there is a change of MMA criteria to widen the scope I can say it is Phase 3, if u dont match at Phase 3 MMA may not widen the criteria further to avoid big mismatch, there maybe another phases in which the MMA widen the criteria but 5 minutes and 23 minutes mark is very apparent to me
    https://cocp.it/clan/L8VLPP80

    Engineered clan focused on crafting optimized bases

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by PapaTroll View Post
    This was what the forum believed, with isolated exceptions. The superstitious belief in "engineer flags" was widespread, and SC allowed the story to run unchallenged for about a year. Finally, in an interview, Darian had to address the question and confirmed that there is NO flag that directly causes engineers to match only engineers.

    Yet ghosts of this belief remain. Whenever someone mentions a tough time matching, some forumite will ask about engineered bases. Engineered bases can be used in roster engineering, but you can roster engineer with max bases too. Roster engineering can cause long war searches. But just having engineered bases causes me no problems in war matching. I frequently use 4 to 5 engineers in 25v25 and 30v30 and match in under an hour twice a week, every week.

    We know nothing about how the MMA really works, but my theory (today) hinges on a two stage match. Clans are matched first on total weight (offense plus defense). Then in a second stage, there is a round of "lane checks" which matches weights of mirrors. If a match fails too many lane checks then it is rejected and the search continues. The second stage explains the difficulty of matching manicured rosters. There appears to be a lot of tolerance in the lane check, and obviously it allows a percentage of bases to fail or we would never get any match. It may even be weighted towards the top of the roster, but that is really pushing the speculation.

    I admit this is speculation. But it is a theory that fits what is happening in the game. It explains what I see better than the "engineer flag" story ever did.

    If I remember correctly, Darian himself started, or at least perpetuated, the belief that engineered clans would be, were being, segregated from the pool of other players.

    I remember nothing of an "engineer flag", but what we were talking about was obvious and trivial: high TH, and very few built defenses, typically one cannon, HTs and bombs and traps. The engineered clans seen in wars would be up to 50% extreme engineered, and the top half or more were normal accounts. As a leader of a clan that welcomes low level kids, TH10-11 at the top end, and plenty of TH4-6 at the bottom, we would see this. The top of the engineered clan would trivially three star out bottom end, we would three star their engineered accounts trivially, and the war was fought out among the top 3-5 ranks. Our clan would win half the time, but the war was not fun for the kids.

    The notion of an "engineering flag" sounds like a conceptual gross oversimplification, and as a coding tool, it would raise more problems than it would solve.

    COC dev coding deserves more respect than an "engineering flag".

    My sense of what is going on with match making is very similar to PapaTroll's. I think there is definitely more weighting at the top, and quite finely tuned at the top, although I feel that scattershots are underweighed. Underweighted scattershots could well be doing that on purpose, to discourage people from not building them. There is definitely more tolerance in the lanes down low, eg in a war of 25v25, four bottom TH3s may very well be mirrored to TH6s, which I think is completely fine.


    My clan never has a war search go less than 23 minutes. 30-45 minutes is normal.
    Last edited by George1971; September 21st, 2020 at 02:07 AM.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by ExploringGalaxy View Post
    Engineering bases are gone long ago, if you still have ebase then you don't have any advantage infact you can loose the wars.
    You may want to read this thread and others on this topic in this forum. There are some very successful engineers right here with very long win streaks. What did happen long ago is the very easy "just rush your offense and build no big defenses" engineering is no longer so easy.

    Contact SC here. Click here for how trophies are calculated. Click here to see how war map placement of max halls is determined. An idea to improve legends here. I wish max players had a separate loot bank as described here. Caution, I often discuss for the sake of discussion and enjoy having my opinion challenged (or approved of) even when I care little about the actual issue. My balance wish: get rid of tornado trap, make it a decoration.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by 2222 View Post
    You may want to read this thread and others on this topic in this forum. There are some very successful engineers right here with very long win streaks. What did happen long ago is the very easy "just rush your offense and build no big defenses" engineering is no longer so easy.
    So, what do you call engineering now ? I haven't got the exact answer in this thread.
    Are you calling th13 without scattershots, th11 without eagle engineered ? They first max min. weight defences thats it ? Or something else ?

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExploringGalaxy View Post
    So, what do you call engineering now ? I haven't got the exact answer in this thread.
    Are you calling th13 without scattershots, th11 without eagle engineered ? They first max min. weight defences thats it ? Or something else ?
    It depends on who you talk to and in what context. Long time ago the general view was the minimum defense max offense. Ithas changed much since then as those sort of tactics really dont work all by themselves any longer. That does not mean engineering is dead, just that it has changed.

    i am not the expert but there are many here who are and I am sure they will correct me where I am wrong. My working definition would be an entire clan that optimizes their war lineups to-ensure they match a specific type of opponent clan that will not have the skill nor firepower to beat or tie them. This involves some careful upgrade sequences, roster selection and knowledge of common clan makeups. You wont see them with all 15v15 full maxed TH13s against a similar opponent, there is no advantage there. (Not that they may not be skillful attackers Because they often are, but because they dont want to risk a loss or a tie). I am sure there is lots more info out there but I am not privy to that knowledge but i dont have to be, my definition works at a high level.

    Read Joshsgranddads posts in this thread, he sums it up darn well.
    Last edited by Tosti111; September 21st, 2020 at 06:09 AM.
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  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by ExploringGalaxy View Post
    So, what do you call engineering now ? I haven't got the exact answer in this thread.
    Are you calling th13 without scattershots, th11 without eagle engineered ? They first max min. weight defences thats it ? Or something else ?
    The difference now is it requires paying attention to the full roster. In the past, a few isolated engineered accounts were just fine. They sometimes provided an advantage and didn't provide any disadvantages. My own clan was like that. Of course, even back then the most successful clans did it through their full roster and were very careful with who they put in to assure a match they would 100%.

    There are engineered clans still making use of defenseless bases. Some may have accounts that are lopsided in favor of defense, perhaps by upgrading only one army combo on offense. Yes, some of it can be as small as not building the big defenses right away, but again the old days of just never building them doesn't really work long term now or at least not only that strategy.

    "Engineering" always meant paying attention to offensive and/or defensive war weight and upgrading strategically with war in mind. It never was only rushing offense ahead and avoiding big defenses. That was just one type. I remember I used to have a th9 that didn't have a king. I loved going on global to have people ask me about my level 30 queen and no king. There have always been a lot of variations of an engineered base. Some of them no longer work. The matchmaker has definitely greatly improved to remove many of the flaws that previously existed. However, there are clans out there with 3 digit win streaks still engineering to great success.

    Contact SC here. Click here for how trophies are calculated. Click here to see how war map placement of max halls is determined. An idea to improve legends here. I wish max players had a separate loot bank as described here. Caution, I often discuss for the sake of discussion and enjoy having my opinion challenged (or approved of) even when I care little about the actual issue. My balance wish: get rid of tornado trap, make it a decoration.

  8. #28
    Forum All-Star joshsgrandad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExploringGalaxy View Post
    So, what do you call engineering now ? I haven't got the exact answer in this thread.
    Are you calling th13 without scattershots, th11 without eagle engineered ? They first max min. weight defences thats it ? Or something else ?
    You are unlikely to get an exact definition and break down of what an engineered clan does in order to gain that advantage.
    Tosti and 2222 have gone some way on explaining the differences.

    But read between the lines of Sams post..
    Without giving anything away, he has displayed just a small example of the knowledge and in depth understanding on how the system works that is required for maintaining a streak within an ever changing landscape.

    Any change is usually felt early by these guys, as they know how their roster will likely match with a given break down.
    With such attention to detail, they could easily be spinning with all top hall, such is their confidence of their proven formula to achieve a given result.

    Easy to dismiss for heavy maxer clans as cop out (and usually is).. But as much time needs be taken to working out details of the MMA and individual account requirements as doing FC to sharpen ones attacking skill.. Just like putting a jigsaw together, each account is only a part of the final picture.

    Each to their own mate.

  9. #29
    Forum Elder Thegreatpuma's Avatar
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    Agree with most of what's been said. A more simplistic way of looking at it is that today's engineers are competing more against Supercell's matchmaking algorithm and SC developers themselves than they are with the opponent they are matched with. When done right the war is virtually impossible for the opponent to win, short of all their accounts spending a bunch of money to upgrade on prep day.
    Last edited by Thegreatpuma; 4 Weeks Ago at 03:01 PM.
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  10. #30
    Forum Superstar JtB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thegreatpuma View Post
    Agree with most of what's been said. A more simplistic way of looking at it is that today's engineers are competing more against Supercell's matchmaking algorithm and SC developers themselves than they are with the opponent they are matched with. When done right the war is virtually impossible for the opponent to win, short of all their accounts spending a bunch of money to upgrade on prep day.
    I like things simple, that is exactly how I see it as well.

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