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  Click here to go to the first staff post in this thread.   Thread: Countering the counter of the counter (reason why game balance is so bad right now)

  1. #1
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    Countering the counter of the counter (reason why game balance is so bad right now)

    The balance of the game is way off right now. Just watch the latest videos by your favorite YouTubers: they will show you this great strategy at TH10, the latest unbreakable base for TH11, the best farming method in TH9, and maybe the latest super TH13 strategy that works... in Titan or below, or in war but performed by a professional team in some qualifier or world final or something like that. But very few YouTubers are actually touching TH13 in Legend league, or showing high level TH13 war attacks, unless they are professional players themselves.

    So, how did the game get here? How did the balance go so much downhill? Granted, the balance always had its ups and downs. For example, as soon as TH11 came out with the new witches, defense was a joke, and max bases could be 3-starred even without spells. Similarly, the bat spell was broken when it came out. On the other hand, before TH11, it was practically impossible to 3-star a TH10. Jake from OneHive had this wonderful series which showed how a TH10 would be taken down after three or four attacks, each incrementally improving over the previous ones. The high point of the balance of the game was, in my opinion, the meta in TH11 where bowlers and miners were really strong. The difficulty there was just right. So, what has gone wrong?

    Say you are ready to attack a base. One of the counters to your attack is the cc. In the past, the cc was a big deal, and a kill squad needed to be devoted to luring and killing the cc. Then the poison spell came out: this is the counter to the counter. We could happily use it to kill the cc and proceed with our attack. But the introduction of ice golems has changed the situation: the freeze effect of the ice golem cannot be countered by the poison. The counter of the counter has been countered.

    Now let's look at the town hall. For years this was a defenseless building. Then, the developers thought they should weaponize it, thus adding a counter. Once siege machines and yetis were added into the game, we finally got a counter to the counter. However, opinionated "pro" players claimed that no, 45 troop space plus a siege machine were not nearly enough investment for taking down a single building, and this led to a yeti nerf, necessitating the additional use of a rage spell. However, even with a rage spell, it is not certain that the town hall will fall, if enough xbows, inferno towers, or scattershots are around it. Once more, the counter of the counter has been countered.

    Walls are one of the oldest counters to an attack. The counter to the counter is the wall breaker. However, wall breakers have become way too weak to use reliably in higher town halls, mostly because of of all the traps and the splash damage introduced. Again, the counter of the counter has been countered. The introduction of super wall breakers is an interesting twist here, but unfortunately we cannot rely on them: we can only have them every other week!

    In addition to all of the above, some counters have no counter at all, and in some cases it has been this way for years. This is the case where base design exploits obvious faults in the AI or omissions. For example, "parenthesis walls" are bypassed by wall breakers; a single inferno in the middle of its own wide enough compartment will happily take out all of your army, because nothing has the range to take it out; the splash damage in a TH13 base is just insane, with the addition of the scattershots.

    The various "pros" keep barking about the right of base designers to defend against everything. But they misunderstand. For example, yes, they should be able to defend an invasion following a wall break at a certain point, but this is after the wall break takes place. They should not be able to prevent a wall break by playing mind games based on AI technicalities or invisible traps. Similarly, a good base should defend against a 3-star assuming a yeti blimp will be used to take out the town hall, but this does not mean that they should be able to prevent a well executed yeti blip because of invisible traps. If so, the attacker should be given some kind of spell to neutralize traps, thus countering the counter to the counter of the counter... and this is where I start getting a headache!

    Yes, attack and defense have been playing a cat and mouse game, but I feel this has now gone too far.
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  2. #2
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    Yeah the dev team is doing just great bt they might be behind time on some issues

    Why take so long to address eq spells or rework lightning spell so late in the game?
    The rework of the freeze spell was just right, with the advent of single infernos
    Yeah they have done some things with great timing
    Another example, with 4 heroes with huge stats on battlefield, they introduced Headhunters, great timing there too as Each hero almost forces a Rage on QW by itself

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    Th13 balance seems quite good right now though I would argue the recent changes have made time fails way too common.

    I would love to see Supercell take the dota2 balancing approach. Small but regular changes to units + defenses.
    Troop X destroying everything? Reduce their DPS bit a few points and see how it plays out.
    No one using Troop Y? Buff it's hp by 5-8%.

    SC seem to prefer just slapping on more levels though unless it's extremely broken. Case in point: the recent level increases to Mortars; Archer towers; Cannons; and Wizard towers.

    It shows that they still have the "Mobile game" mentality rather than "Competitive esports" game mentality.

  4. #4
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    I agree with you OP.
    I’ve been saying the balance of the game has been out of sorts since TH12 came along, although it has gotten somewhat better, it is still in need of adjustments. The introduction of the weaponized TH caused a huge amount of consideration to be taken, I’m not saying I’m opposed to it, just that it changed the game in a big way.
    There are certain things that I see that need to be addressed, I see the scattershots being too strong defensively and I see the Yeti being still too strong offensively compared to the rest of the troops. I also see other issues that have been a problem for a very long time, such as the queen and healers behaviours, along with other abnormalities that have been fore mentioned in this very forum.
    Every time we get an update things seem to get introduced that have no bearing on fixing existing problems, rather they add to them, is; super troops. The super troops are a temporary troop that when played give the super ability to the offence and change the dynamics of the balancing of the game, albeit temporarily.
    Of course we will hear from the “get good” crowd here that sees it entirely different, but for the vast majority of people, we are speaking the truth.
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  5. #5
    Ok, my clan was the 39th in champions 1 last season, but we are still casual players and far from professionals. We all think the th13 balance is good. Maybe a little too easy to 3 star.
    I myself design layouts since th9 and have never find so difficult to counter attacks. Our war results of 1/4 or more of 3 star attacks at champions 1 also confirm that.
    Balance was very bad when th11 was the most powerful th. 3 staring a max th11 was almost impossible at the time, and so many times a th11 would miss against a max th10.
    But since the introduction of siege machines and th12, things got a lot better and balance has found its way. But balance is not static. It will be always changing with new troops, strategies and updates. All those counters you mentioned are part of the fun.
    Last edited by CHANDRIANO; July 18th, 2020 at 08:48 PM.

  6. #6
    OP are you saying you think defense is too strong at th13?

    Quote Originally Posted by CHANDRIANO View Post
    Ok, my clan was the 39th in champions 1 last season, but we are still casual players...


    Casual players likely would disagree with this assessment.

    Last edited by 2222; July 18th, 2020 at 09:59 PM.

    Contact SC here. Click here for how trophies are calculated. Click here to see how war map placement of max halls is determined. An idea to improve legends here. I wish max players had a separate loot bank as described here. Caution, I often discuss for the sake of discussion and enjoy having my opinion challenged (or approved of) even when I care little about the actual issue. My balance wish: get rid of tornado trap, make it a decoration.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by CHANDRIANO View Post
    ...we are still casual players and far from professionals... Maybe a little too easy to 3 star.
    Said by casuals ... NEVER!
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  8. #8
    Millennial Club Iftheskyisblue's Avatar
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    Hi OP i would like to offer some help but i'm not sure exactly what you are saying. Are you saying defence is too strong? or attack too weak? Or there are too many options on defence?

    personally i agree with chandriano and i think game balance at th13 is good but the 3 star rate is too high.

    imo heros are too powerful now - a good sui can wreck 50% of a base.

    Quote Originally Posted by CHANDRIANO View Post
    Ok, my clan was the 39th in champions 1 last season, but we are still casual players and far from professionals. We all think the th13 balance is good. Maybe a little too easy to 3 star.
    I myself design layouts since th9 and have never find so difficult to counter attacks. Our war results of 1/4 or more of 3 star attacks at champions 1 also confirm that.
    Balance was very bad when th11 was the most powerful th. 3 staring a max th11 was almost impossible at the time, and so many times a th11 would miss against a max th10.
    But since the introduction of siege machines and th12, things got a lot better and balance has found its way. But balance is not static. It will be always changing with new troops, strategies and updates. All those counters you mentioned are part of the fun.

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  9. #9
    Forum Veteran ChiefTuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by porky1122 View Post
    Th13 balance seems quite good right now though I would argue the recent changes have made time fails way too common.

    I would love to see Supercell take the dota2 balancing approach. Small but regular changes to units + defenses.
    Troop X destroying everything? Reduce their DPS bit a few points and see how it plays out.
    No one using Troop Y? Buff it's hp by 5-8%.

    SC seem to prefer just slapping on more levels though unless it's extremely broken. Case in point: the recent level increases to Mortars; Archer towers; Cannons; and Wizard towers.

    It shows that they still have the "Mobile game" mentality rather than "Competitive esports" game mentality.
    I agree that time fails happen a bit too often & have made hybrid & lalo the only really competitive strats at TH13. Is anyone pushing into the top of legends with anything else? Maybe hogs?

    SC has been doing more frequent tweaking of stats as you describe. They could be a little more proactive. I'm surprised they haven't done something to stop the cc zap strats.
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  10. #10
    Pro Member dpgza's Avatar
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    I agree with the op. SuperCell had been doing and keeps doing same mistake often. For example, if dragons are to strong they buff air defence, meanwhile the ballons are just suffering. When the proper aproach would of been adjusting dragons in the first place. This is just an example on how things usually happen.

    At th13 we got the scattershots. That destroyed balloons attacks completly.

    And i 100% agree with Dota 2 comparison.
    Devs in that game slowly buff weaker heroes and debuff stronger ones, constantly balancing their game.
    We have troops like golem or valkyrie, wich are out of the game. And seeing an army in 2% of attacks is pointless, compared to 98% of constantly usage of same other ones.

    This is the product of adding new defences in time and not adjusting troops, not doing balance changes for long periods.WB for example. Normal version is almost useless at TH13, barely has any succes to open walls.

    Or take for example silver league bonus, where a th7 is usually. Thats 10k when your army is 100-150k. No wonder people look for dead bases to be able to farm enough for their builders. Going for exploiting loopholes instead of having normal attacks. Only way to progress further. Outcome of a badly design, never been taken care of.

    I can say a lot of stuff, but dont think its needed. We all know how it goes. Ranging from AI to armies and league bonuses and so on.

    I got to 5600 in Legend, so i dont think anyone can say to me "get better". How much better i should be ? If getting at a point like this, me and manny others complain about wb,AI, strategies, dont you think we might have a point ?
    Let me ask developers or content creators, or whoever is in charge of game balance. Did you actually got where some of us got with the game ? To see how it actually is ? Issues and what not ? I tend to think you might of not, no offence. But please do, and you will understand what we are talking about.
    Last edited by dpgza; July 19th, 2020 at 03:08 AM.

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