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Thread: Mis-matched in war

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yachi View Post
    My clan is rather small, with a handful of core players on multiple accounts. Those max lower THs are our fillers. If we don't put them in, we can't even start wars. The way you put it is like it's our fault we put in max bases... it is as good as saying we should play the roster engineering game to stay competitive? And yes, that 11 could be another factor coupled with the 6.

    I'm beginning to think that the weight difference between a max TH12 vs a mid max TH13 is not too far off, hence the match ups that we get recently, but I could be wrong. My point still stands... wars are won at the top. More consideration should be taken on the top half of the roster rather than considering the total weigh of the entire roster.
    Exactly, Mid th13 has a close weight both in offense and def to max th12, even a max th13 now may have closer difference compared to max th11 vs max th12(th12 has 60/60/30 heroes in the first part of the update). so upgrading a few max th12 in your clan will give you better match in term of th13 parity.

    MM always put more consideration on top TH weight, and almost ignore the lowest bases(especially if the lowest bases has too big weight difference), so that is why roster engineering has lost its effectiveness for at least 2 years
    https://www.clashofstats.com/clans/a...LPP80/members/

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  2. #32
    Forum Superstar joshsgrandad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yachi View Post
    My clan is rather small, with a handful of core players on multiple accounts. Those max lower THs are our fillers. If we don't put them in, we can't even start wars. The way you put it is like it's our fault we put in max bases... it is as good as saying we should play the roster engineering game to stay competitive? And yes, that 11 could be another factor coupled with the 6.

    I'm beginning to think that the weight difference between a max TH12 vs a mid max TH13 is not too far off, hence the match ups that we get recently, but I could be wrong. My point still stands... wars are won at the top. More consideration should be taken on the top half of the roster rather than considering the total weigh of the entire roster.
    I apologise if I made it sound like it was your fault.. Never meant to imply that.. (Your log is rather impressive, miserable or not).

    What I am trying to say, is that the MMA is a one size fits all..
    There isnt a matchmaker for maxers, a matchmaker for rushers, and a matchmaker for engi..
    So finding a roster that is common is key to fair draws..

    It simply crunches the numbers, works its magic, and comes up with a total score.. Then matches it to opposition with the same score.

    That is where roster break downs can make or break a match for some..
    Unless a full maxer clan can run heavy at the top, it will always be at disadvantage..
    Everything that has an effect on the match is scored/weighted.. Defences, camps, lab, spells, heroes, all combine both with individual account and roster wide..
    A roster full of fully max bases will carry a lot of weight that wont even be used.. This is why engineers only unlock troops they use.. Then max them..

    You dont seem to have a choice, but your clan/roster will be pretty uncommon, in that everything gets maxed before the jump..

    No doubt, looking at your log, you can most often win a one on one, all things being equal..
    But the oppo rosters arent max.. And that missing weight is allowing for more weight to be added.. And when its at the top you are in trouble.

    So no, not your fault, but you are likely to mostly be fighting at a disadvantage.

    BTW.. As Sam already said, your thoughts on 12/13 weight is almost certainly correct.. I, like Sam, count 12 and 13 together when comparing top end bases (although that will likely change with time, as more updates arrive).
    Last edited by joshsgrandad; 4 Weeks Ago at 04:04 AM.

  3. #33
    Forum Veteran Yachi's Avatar
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    Looks like we really need the max 12s to push to 13 then. I think some of us are planning to max out on walls first while trying to master 12v12, but looks like it is doing the clan a disservice to stay at 12.


  4. #34
    Forum Superstar joshsgrandad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yachi View Post
    Looks like we really need the max 12s to push to 13 then. I think some of us are planning to max out on walls first while trying to master 12v12, but looks like it is doing the clan a disservice to stay at 12.
    To be fair mate, you do what you feel you need to do..
    Once you have information/knowledge on what is likely happening, then an informed decision can be made..
    Always remember that the clan members may well be more content than yourself tho.. They may prefer to continue as normal..

    But you will know that score better than me..

    You are a maxer clan.. Streak chasing is for streakers, with their slimline accounts..

    It may be as simple as a change in mindset..
    636 war wins is impressive.. If you simply concentrate on that when posting, rather than any losses that come along, then frustration can be avoided..
    Its a glass half full/half empty scenario..

    With the matching tho.. I feel CWL has further enhanced the mindset to rush..
    It is an unweighted system, so bigger is better..
    And so long as that rushing is strategic, it can also assist with better regular war spins too, since it is the basis of base engineering..
    Good luck Yachi.. Your record shows you know what you are doing.

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Yachi View Post
    My clan is rather small, with a handful of core players on multiple accounts. Those max lower THs are our fillers. If we don't put them in, we can't even start wars. The way you put it is like it's our fault we put in max bases... it is as good as saying we should play the roster engineering game to stay competitive? And yes, that 11 could be another factor coupled with the 6.

    I'm beginning to think that the weight difference between a max TH12 vs a mid max TH13 is not too far off, hence the match ups that we get recently, but I could be wrong. My point still stands... wars are won at the top. More consideration should be taken on the top half of the roster rather than considering the total weigh of the entire roster.
    I would say that you should try roster engineering in order to stay competitive. If wars are won at the top then I would be trying to find out how I could at least avoid being outmatched on top. It's a bit like our heavy clan where we have many max bases, we can win a lot but occasionally we end up going too heavy and end up being outmatched. I do actually see it as "our fault" because we can't change the game, so we must change. We went through a period like that in our streak clan too where MM changed and were forced to change.
    Last edited by MajorJohnson; 4 Weeks Ago at 01:21 PM.

  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Yachi View Post
    You kept saying that you doubt or disagree that a TH6 would give any clan an advantage, but I have yet to read your reasons as to why? Care to share more on your thoughts besides changes in the matchmaking system? I am tempted to try putting in some trash accounts to see if things work, but probably after CWL.
    Because it used to work very well and then SC changed the matchmaker and it stopped working. While we never went so far as to load up the bottom for the purpose of getting a big advantage, we did often use a couple low accounts to fill in whatever was needed to get to the next level of 5 players for war rather than sitting anyone out. It never hurt and often helped. Over time, that changed. Instead of never hurting and often helping that was changed to either seem to be a total ignoring of those low fillers or causing us to match with defenseless bases. So, we stopped. We still match other clans that do that from time to time and it doesn't help them.

    Also, it isn't just me. Others have noticed it and it has been regularly discussed here. For example, see Sam's comment below.

    Like I said before, if you don't believe players here saying the same thing, try it. Run your next 10 wars with 5 th3s at the bottom and see what the results are. Long ago it would have meant a big advantage to you at the top. Now it more likely means you match an engineered clan or they just get ignored. Again, though, that assumes nothing changed recently. If something changed recently and that is back to working again, let us know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yachi View Post
    My clan is rather small, with a handful of core players on multiple accounts. Those max lower THs are our fillers. If we don't put them in, we can't even start wars. The way you put it is like it's our fault we put in max bases... it is as good as saying we should play the roster engineering game to stay competitive? And yes, that 11 could be another factor coupled with the 6.

    I'm beginning to think that the weight difference between a max TH12 vs a mid max TH13 is not too far off, hence the match ups that we get recently, but I could be wrong. My point still stands... wars are won at the top. More consideration should be taken on the top half of the roster rather than considering the total weigh of the entire roster.
    Yes, clans with max accounts do often tend to match with clans with one hall up that are new or even maybe mid level. It shouldn't happen much, though, because why is a hall less than th13 fully maxed rather than moving up? If it is a desire to stay permanently maxed with the hope of getting an advantage maxing something less than max at that same level, that doesn't work too well unless your roster is very carefully engineered. Maxers seem to be upset when they match one hall up, but think it is ok when they match someone their same hall that isn't max that they have an advantage over, but I think you have to take the good with the bad in that respect if you want to use max halls.

    Quote Originally Posted by samratulangi View Post
    Exactly, Mid th13 has a close weight both in offense and def to max th12, even a max th13 now may have closer difference compared to max th11 vs max th12(th12 has 60/60/30 heroes in the first part of the update). so upgrading a few max th12 in your clan will give you better match in term of th13 parity.

    MM always put more consideration on top TH weight, and almost ignore the lowest bases(especially if the lowest bases has too big weight difference), so that is why roster engineering has lost its effectiveness for at least 2 years
    Last edited by 2222; 4 Weeks Ago at 01:58 PM.

    Contact SC here. Click here for how trophies are calculated. Click here for how cc troops deploy ( it depends) and more here. How is war map placement of max halls determined?, see answer here. Thank you SC for the new legends! However, how to fight collusion here.

  7. #37
    Forum Veteran Yachi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joshsgrandad View Post
    To be fair mate, you do what you feel you need to do..
    Once you have information/knowledge on what is likely happening, then an informed decision can be made..
    Always remember that the clan members may well be more content than yourself tho.. They may prefer to continue as normal..

    But you will know that score better than me..

    You are a maxer clan.. Streak chasing is for streakers, with their slimline accounts..

    It may be as simple as a change in mindset..
    636 war wins is impressive.. If you simply concentrate on that when posting, rather than any losses that come along, then frustration can be avoided..
    Its a glass half full/half empty scenario..

    With the matching tho.. I feel CWL has further enhanced the mindset to rush..
    It is an unweighted system, so bigger is better..
    And so long as that rushing is strategic, it can also assist with better regular war spins too, since it is the basis of base engineering..
    Good luck Yachi.. Your record shows you know what you are doing.
    Thank you. Always a pleasure reading your posts. My guys are frustrated with the losses, so they are all for using lower THs to balance the weight on top. We'll see after CWL.


  8. #38
    Forum Veteran Yachi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorJohnson View Post
    I would say that you should try roster engineering in order to stay competitive. If wars are won at the top then I would be trying to find out how I could at least avoid being outmatched on top. It's a bit like our heavy clan where we have many max bases, we can win a lot but occasionally we end up going too heavy and end up being outmatched. I do actually see it as "our fault" because we can't change the game, so we must change. We went through a period like that in our streak clan too where MM changed and were forced to change.
    The lowest we have are TH8s. Mostly used for clan games and never for war. Not sure if they are of any use or making a couple of TH3s would be better?


  9. #39
    Forum Veteran Yachi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2222 View Post
    Because it used to work very well and then SC changed the matchmaker and it stopped working. While we never went so far as to load up the bottom for the purpose of getting a big advantage, we did often use a couple low accounts to fill in whatever was needed to get to the next level of 5 players for war rather than sitting anyone out. It never hurt and often helped. Over time, that changed. Instead of never hurting and often helping that was changed to either seem to be a total ignoring of those low fillers or causing us to match with defenseless bases. So, we stopped. We still match other clans that do that from time to time and it doesn't help them.

    Also, it isn't just me. Others have noticed it and it has been regularly discussed here. For example, see Sam's comment below.

    Like I said before, if you don't believe players here saying the same thing, try it. Run your next 10 wars with 5 th3s at the bottom and see what the results are. Long ago it would have meant a big advantage to you at the top. Now it more likely means you match an engineered clan or they just get ignored. Again, though, that assumes nothing changed recently. If something changed recently and that is back to working again, let us know.
    This is puzzling. How is matchmaking going to be based on overall roster weight and yet ignore the lower THs?

    Yes, clans with max accounts do often tend to match with clans with one hall up that are new or even maybe mid level. It shouldn't happen much, though, because why is a hall less than th13 fully maxed rather than moving up? If it is a desire to stay permanently maxed with the hope of getting an advantage maxing something less than max at that same level, that doesn't work too well unless your roster is very carefully engineered. Maxers seem to be upset when they match one hall up, but think it is ok when they match someone their same hall that isn't max that they have an advantage over, but I think you have to take the good with the bad in that respect if you want to use max halls.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yachi View Post
    Looks like we really need the max 12s to push to 13 then. I think some of us are planning to max out on walls first while trying to master 12v12, but looks like it is doing the clan a disservice to stay at 12.
    This is the reason why. No desire to stay permanently maxed unless it is a spare account. Certainly not trying to gain an advantage. Especially now when there is CWL, we are upgrading steadily, albeit a little too much, hence the smaller size wars (people are out upgrading heroes). That underlined statement though... our 12v12s aren't that shabby. Most people struggle against ours, not because they are offensively weaker, but we had pretty decent base designs. However, all these become irrelevant since they can easily dip with their extra TH13s. That is why we are upset.


  10. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Yachi View Post
    The lowest we have are TH8s. Mostly used for clan games and never for war. Not sure if they are of any use or making a couple of TH3s would be better?
    If you believe it is just a total of all of the weight used for the match, then, yes, th3s would work better than th7s. I don't think it will work, but you may want to try it to see what happens. My own clan stopped using even th7s as a filler because dropping in one or two of those to reach the next level of 5 more often caused us to match engineered clans with defenseless bases at their bottom.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yachi View Post
    This is puzzling. How is matchmaking going to be based on overall roster weight and yet ignore the lower THs?
    It isn't based on overall weight. It is true that it isn't a lane-by-lane or account-by-account matching, but it also isn't as simple as just add up all of the offense and defense weight and then use that total to match another clan. In the past, it was something along those lines so it was very easy to create matches where you were sure to win simply by loading the bottom with a bunch of th3s, but having enough other accounts to cover all of the attacks. There were clans with long win streaks that literally had accounts called "war filler" and other names of th3s for this purpose. The worst thing they ever faced was someone doing the same and they ended up with a 100% tie. Thankfully, it no longer works that way (again, unless something changed recently).

    You can tell there are all sorts of other checks and balances in the matching than just overall weight. Higher halls seem to be more important than the bottom of the roster, for example.

    Contact SC here. Click here for how trophies are calculated. Click here for how cc troops deploy ( it depends) and more here. How is war map placement of max halls determined?, see answer here. Thank you SC for the new legends! However, how to fight collusion here.

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