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  Click here to go to the first staff post in this thread.   Thread: TH13 - Forever waiting, it all just takes too long....

  1. #101
    Forum Legend Warios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noctaire View Post
    We already covered the benefits of the Gold Pass; this aspect of the discussion was more focused on F2P. That said...even with Gold Pass, the build/upgrade times are too long. It's both a matter of spend as well as fun. Take heroes, for example. You'll typically get 2 BoH in the Season Pass - one on the Gold line, one on the Silver line. There's a possible event reward of a BoH and a possible BoH in Clan Games (but not always) so you're looking at 2-4 each month. That will certainly help reduce the Builder time but that's only 2-4 upgrades out of ***40*** (5/5/10/20). One can argue that you can also use medals to get an HoH but for that to be very impactful you'll need to be in a strong clan and get bonus medals; at best, the typical player will be looking at maybe 2 potential HoH in any CWL season, more likely just 1 and a second every other month. Again, very little impact - now we're up to 3-5 levels each month. All the while, yer draggin' with one or more heroes down, so it affects the "fun" factor as well.



    It's not about F2P players being able to complete current content before the next update - that was a tangent discussion within the thread. It's reasonable to expect an F2P player cannot complete everything between content releases, otherwise no one would really see sense in spending any money.

    The issue I'm raising is greater in scope and I (and others) have discussed a variety of points throughout the thread. It's about the overall length of time required for any player to get to the end game which is right about 5 years for F2P and 2-3 years for those of moderate spend. TH13's long build/upgrade times has really pushed the build/upgrade game into uncharted territory. Even with additional time reductions, where we are at right now, a TH14 would just be too much. Speaking toward the long-term picture, the build/upgrade game has jumped the shark and something new is needed to keep things moving forward. From a general play perspective, the wait time for armies/heroes is just as long as ever and the longer upgrade times further disincentivize players from playing (why play when you're spilling resources). What I'm referring to here is the combined effects of all the waits inherent to the design of the game.
    where do you get your numbers for a F2P player taking 5 years to catch up? have you looked a the build times for buildings at lower levels lately?

    The sub Th12 items have been reduced to a great degree, I never did the math, but within a year you should be close to a max th11, with the F2P magic items in game.










    and it is not till lvl 40 that the AQ needs a week to have an upgrade.



    Its really not that bad as it used to be.
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  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Noctaire View Post
    The issue I'm raising is greater in scope and I (and others) have discussed a variety of points throughout the thread. It's about the overall length of time required for any player to get to the end game which is right about 5 years for F2P and 2-3 years for those of moderate spend.
    First of all, the 5 years overall length of time only apply to players that started to play this game "today", which is not really majority of players. Majority of players should be at 0.5-2 years to reach the end game. Middle aged (in terms of life time on this game, around TH8-TH9) should be at 2-3 years to reach the end game. It isn't really too long considering that this game is build to last and to be played for years.

    Now, for the new players of course 5 years may be a really long time, but that's not to say that SC should stop adding new contents (new levels) to the game. And again so far when a new TH level was released, all the previous TH level build/upgrade time will be shaved off 20-40% so that players can progress faster.

    In my opinion though, if we are going to have TH14, TH15 and beyond, who knows, maybe new players will be allowed to skip TH1-5 and start from TH6 (if they want to) with gems or free or whatever. I am leaving this thinking to SC what they want to do with future new contents, but one thing for sure is the build/upgrade contents should never be stopped to prolong this game's life time.

  3. #103
    Forum Veteran Yachi's Avatar
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    I'm happy with the current upgrade times for TH13. I'm no longer as active in farming as I used to be, so I depend heavily on war loot for upgrades. However, I'm in the opinion that the lower THs should have even shorter upgrade times so more new players can join the game without thinking that it takes too long to reach the current highest TH levels. TH9 is probably where most players quit... the hero grind is what puts players off.


  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warios View Post
    where do you get your numbers for a F2P player taking 5 years to catch up? have you looked a the build times for buildings at lower levels lately?

    The sub Th12 items have been reduced to a great degree, I never did the math, but within a year you should be close to a max th11, with the F2P magic items in game.

    <SNIP>

    and it is not till lvl 40 that the AQ needs a week to have an upgrade.

    <SNIP>

    Its really not that bad as it used to be.
    Look at the cumulative rather than individual items. There are 4912 Builder days from 0 to max TH13 right now. An F2P player could reach maxed TH10 in his first year (not TH11) assuming he plays pretty steady/hard. Maxed TH13 would likely be 2-3 years from there, depending upon how active he plays. In the time it takes to max TH13 from starting today, TH14 would definitely be out and likely even TH15, adding another 1-2 years. So, new F2P players starting today are looking at a solid 5 years to reach the end-game.

    Like all games, Clash has churn in its player base. Everyone Iíve tried to get into this game has declined because of how long it takes to get to the top tier of the game and how much money they would have to invest to get there in a reasonable amount of time. No one who had previously played will even consider coming back for the same reasons and some of them were already at TH10.

    Existing players complain that the newest content takes too long not simply because they want to max immediately or because it costs so much but because of the way it impacts gameplay. TBH, I do NOT enjoy playing when my heroes are down for upgrades. IMHO, itís flat out no fun. TH13 introduced ***40*** new levels of heroes! Even with spending, Books, Hammers, and the Gold Pass, I still have 6 levels to go on my GW. On my games where I do not spend, my heroes are nowhere close to maxed and probably will not be anytime in the near future.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mercfovia87 View Post
    First of all, the 5 years overall length of time only apply to players that started to play this game "today", which is not really majority of players. Majority of players should be at 0.5-2 years to reach the end game. Middle aged (in terms of life time on this game, around TH8-TH9) should be at 2-3 years to reach the end game. It isn't really too long considering that this game is build to last and to be played for years.

    Now, for the new players of course 5 years may be a really long time, but that's not to say that SC should stop adding new contents (new levels) to the game. And again so far when a new TH level was released, all the previous TH level build/upgrade time will be shaved off 20-40% so that players can progress faster.

    In my opinion though, if we are going to have TH14, TH15 and beyond, who knows, maybe new players will be allowed to skip TH1-5 and start from TH6 (if they want to) with gems or free or whatever. I am leaving this thinking to SC what they want to do with future new contents, but one thing for sure is the build/upgrade contents should never be stopped to prolong this game's life time.
    I suspect the bulk of existing players are a couple years from the end-game, but thereís churn to consider there. Lots of folks quit after a year or so, when they realize theyíre on a 3-5 year journey that keeps getting pushed further out by the addition of new levels. The funny thing here...even with all the time reductions, and faster progress, itís still somehow a 3-5 year journey for new players. And new players are needed to keep the game going.

    Keep in mind - Iíve never said the build/upgrade side of the game should be ended. To a point, itís both fun and very satisfying. I am of the opinion it has reached the point itís too long now - directly affecting gameplay / player satisfaction - and that we need other forms of player engagement to become the core draw if the game is to last. For top tier players, the core of the game should not be build/upgrade - that should be part of the game, but with a slower content release schedule.

    For example, the TH13 release was huge. Right out the gate we got the TH upgrade, 2 new defenses, several new troops/spells, and a boatload of new defensive upgrades. Next month weíll likely get about a third to half as much more. Thatís way too much way too fast for these upgrade times. It should be more evenly rolled out over the course of 18 months - or broken into 2 TH levels - with something else to be the general focus that maintains player engagement.

    Who knows...maybe theyíll surprise us all with another mode of play. Personally, I think that was what the BB was supposed to be and still could be if they fixed the problems there and gave it tournaments. Theyíve been pretty adamant that the BB is not on the 2020 project board though. They seem fixed on adding to the grind and I just do not see that as healthy long term.
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  5. #105
    Forum Legend Warios's Avatar
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    4912 builder days with 5 builders is 982 days each or 2.69 years. Not taking magic items into consideration, I still don't see where your 5 years comes into play.

    And as a side note, you don't need a max base to have fun playing the game.
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  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Noctaire View Post
    I suspect the bulk of existing players are a couple years from the end-game, but there’s churn to consider there. Lots of folks quit after a year or so, when they realize they’re on a 3-5 year journey that keeps getting pushed further out by the addition of new levels. The funny thing here...even with all the time reductions, and faster progress, it’s still somehow a 3-5 year journey for new players. And new players are needed to keep the game going.
    Which is where your argument fails.

    You agreed that with all the reductions and faster progress, the complete journey will always take about the same 3-5 years. But how is that "keeps getting pushed further out by the addition of new levels" ??

    Players are on a 3-5 years Clash journey, but the new contents never pushed the journey further or longer. It is still the same 3-5 years journey (and also debunked by Warios' post that the builder days count of slightly less than 3 years journey).

    Quote Originally Posted by Noctaire View Post
    Keep in mind - I’ve never said the build/upgrade side of the game should be ended. To a point, it’s both fun and very satisfying. I am of the opinion it has reached the point it’s too long now - directly affecting gameplay / player satisfaction - and that we need other forms of player engagement to become the core draw if the game is to last. For top tier players, the core of the game should not be build/upgrade - that should be part of the game, but with a slower content release schedule.
    Since the journey stays at 3 years, how is that directly affect gameplay /player satisfaction ? Again I say this, I agree that we need contents/features other than build/upgrade new levels, we need contents such as CWL, Clan Games and in the future many more such contents to keep player engaged with the game, and I don't think anyone is doubting or denying that we need such content.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noctaire View Post
    For example, the TH13 release was huge. Right out the gate we got the TH upgrade, 2 new defenses, several new troops/spells, and a boatload of new defensive upgrades. Next month we’ll likely get about a third to half as much more. That’s way too much way too fast for these upgrade times. It should be more evenly rolled out over the course of 18 months - or broken into 2 TH levels - with something else to be the general focus that maintains player engagement.
    No, I don't agree the new level contents should be released slower or rolled out evenly over the course of 18 months. It would then defeat the purpose of having say TH13. I prefer the TH13 contents rolled out in the first 12 months, then we would have 3-6 months time to enjoy being maxed TH13, and you could say giving max players rest time before new levels and for lower level players to catch up a little bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noctaire View Post
    Who knows...maybe they’ll surprise us all with another mode of play. Personally, I think that was what the BB was supposed to be and still could be if they fixed the problems there and gave it tournaments. They’ve been pretty adamant that the BB is not on the 2020 project board though. They seem fixed on adding to the grind and I just do not see that as healthy long term.
    No doubt about Builder Base, CG, CWL, such contents are created to keep players engaged to the game "in addition" to build/upgrade contents. But such contents are never the core of the game. Do you have any idea what "core" means?

    Core of the game is still fine with build/upgrade all these years, because it is definitely what "core" of the game means. You need more than an opinion to state otherwise, which I don't see how you could give anything more than an opinion.
    Last edited by Mercfovia87; February 18th, 2020 at 06:23 AM.

  7. #107
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    Isnt that why sc said they are concentrating on keeping their older customers happy rather than trying to bring in new blood. With all the upgrades and costs to it, why will new players want to play or even compete

  8. #108
    Forum Superstar joshsgrandad's Avatar
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    The premise of the thread is that the only goal is to max out.. But not being maxed doesnt impact on the enjoyment of playing the game for the vast majority..
    Indeed, it is the race to max that is depriving those whom have issues with the build times from actually gaining anything from the game other than being able to state how close they are to reaching that holy grail again..

    There are those that have a necessity to be maxed.. ESL competitors and content creators comes to mind, since both preferably need to be maxed in order to gain the most from what they do..
    For everyone else, they have a choice tho.. Either have everything down to grow, or play the game, safe in the knowledge that every time a builder goes down, that account gets ever so slightly bigger..

    Sure, when the game was released on 2nd August 2012, it was simply another castle game with the idea being to build it up..
    But in a saturated market, the life time is pretty limited.. they are all so samey..
    SC changed the model (or worked with a long term plan), and in April '14 clan wars came into things (later, in Feb '15, they introduced the opt in/out to make clan wars easier for leadership)..

    Now they had a model that could be sustained.. The game was hitting the top of the charts, and could stay there..
    To keep players engaged, new content was required.. And with that new content, the journey was becoming longer..
    Back end of 2017, they seemed to realise it was becoming too much of a grind, so clan games was released, in order to speed up progression.. So far so good for SC..

    Then E sports came knocking.. ESL..
    2nd October 2018 CWL was released.. And the main prize for the best was a ticket into ESL..
    For me, that is maybe where they went wrong..
    All of a sudden, regular war seemed to be taking a back seat, which had, IMV, been the main reason the game had stayed as popular for so long.. The MMA is probably at its best ever, but the rewards from CWL are too good for regular to compete..

    So now we have a scenario whereby bigger is better, since CWL is unweighted..
    But there is still so much to enjoy within the game without being maxed (unless, as already stated, there is a necessity for the player to be at max)..

    My thought is.. Either take the time out from playing, whilst the builders are busy.. Or simply enjoy the game in your own way..
    It isnt like the early days.. There is more to it now than simply being maxed.
    The build times are there for a reason, and that is to prolong the period before the clamour for more content to be released..
    I think they got it just about right so far..

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by joshsgrandad View Post
    The premise of the thread is that the only goal is to max out.. But not being maxed doesnt impact on the enjoyment of playing the game for the vast majority..
    Indeed, it is the race to max that is depriving those whom have issues with the build times from actually gaining anything from the game other than being able to state how close they are to reaching that holy grail again..

    There are those that have a necessity to be maxed.. ESL competitors and content creators comes to mind, since both preferably need to be maxed in order to gain the most from what they do..
    For everyone else, they have a choice tho.. Either have everything down to grow, or play the game, safe in the knowledge that every time a builder goes down, that account gets ever so slightly bigger..

    Sure, when the game was released on 2nd August 2012, it was simply another castle game with the idea being to build it up..
    But in a saturated market, the life time is pretty limited.. they are all so samey..
    SC changed the model (or worked with a long term plan), and in April '14 clan wars came into things (later, in Feb '15, they introduced the opt in/out to make clan wars easier for leadership)..

    Now they had a model that could be sustained.. The game was hitting the top of the charts, and could stay there..
    To keep players engaged, new content was required.. And with that new content, the journey was becoming longer..
    Back end of 2017, they seemed to realise it was becoming too much of a grind, so clan games was released, in order to speed up progression.. So far so good for SC..

    Then E sports came knocking.. ESL..
    2nd October 2018 CWL was released.. And the main prize for the best was a ticket into ESL..
    For me, that is maybe where they went wrong..
    All of a sudden, regular war seemed to be taking a back seat, which had, IMV, been the main reason the game had stayed as popular for so long.. The MMA is probably at its best ever, but the rewards from CWL are too good for regular to compete..

    So now we have a scenario whereby bigger is better, since CWL is unweighted..
    But there is still so much to enjoy within the game without being maxed (unless, as already stated, there is a necessity for the player to be at max)..

    My thought is.. Either take the time out from playing, whilst the builders are busy.. Or simply enjoy the game in your own way..
    It isnt like the early days.. There is more to it now than simply being maxed.
    The build times are there for a reason, and that is to prolong the period before the clamour for more content to be released..
    I think they got it just about right so far..
    JGD got it exactly right. When I first started many years ago, i didnt ask “how long to max? “ My assessment was based on it being fun. i have had a ball for many years playing CoC, the journey was great, being max TH is great, grinding is great, being in a clan with new friends is great, war is great, CWL is great, BH is...well, it is BH.

    The point is, you can have a ton of fun all the way through the journey if you choose. As many have said before on many different threads, if endgame is your only goal, you are missing most of the experience.

    I will bet that the folks who are attracted to this game are attracted by most of the things I am, if not, they would have left a looooooong time ago. CoC is a marathon, not a sprint. All Those sprinters have many other gaming choices out there, I am sure they have sprinted their way to the end of many of them already (and I bet many of those games are no longer in existence too).
    Last edited by Tosti111; February 18th, 2020 at 07:40 AM.

  10. #110
    Senior Member jamesoo7's Avatar
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    My thoughts about this thread!
    It discusses new base-building time-consumption issues, so far as I think it is impossible for new players to get here, by now players should be at a new level. This is what the OP says.

    But I believe that players need something to kill time. It is useless to watch builder work for two weeks !! There must be a reason for the player to return to the game (such as the builder's perfect schedule or builder's base). I have gone through this type of problem before. Where I used to get upset seeing the upgrade time of 14 days! The season pass has made it the easiest. Either upgrade time should be reduced or new game mode added. Then I said why not respect the old thinking again.

    https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...C-In-new-style

    Sorry to open this closed thread! I went through the same situation as OP was thinking. Then it was the time of th12 .. That's why I formulated this idea at that time.

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