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  Click here to go to the first staff post in this thread.   Thread: trying to figure out war weight calculation done by server

  1. #111
    Forum Superstar joshsgrandad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thegreatpuma View Post
    So in TMBG we've lost two in a row for the first time ever. the first loss was just us not able to execute at the top, was a good matchup. the second though was another one of these th13s aligned opposite our 12s. here's the lineup with heroes:

    https://ibb.co/YZkTmMM

    Their top base had maxed EA, two level 1 Scatters, and a few other maxed d, and level 4 GI. Their 2 had one scatter, maxed EA, level 1GI, and mostly th12 point D. both had rushed walls.

    They won 43-42, but would have won even if we'd managed 43 as they had good% on the bases they didn't 3. They basically dipped all over the place, the top 4 easily getting all but 2*and only leaving 15% on the table in our top 7. Which allowed the rest of their garbage tens to easily get our new tens and lower bases.

    here's the hit rate:
    https://ibb.co/KL7dR39
    It certainly seems (and Sam also stated) that the top hall numbers are no longer matching (looser)..
    maybe there never was a checkbox, but if there were, then it certainly seems to have fallen by the wayside somewhat..

    My latest spin has gone the same way as the last one..
    My bowless 7x 9s, matched to a 10, and 8x 9s.. Low walls, smaller heroes, and all carrying bows.. 3 of them on the 10 again..
    Is a 20v war size, so likely a 59 star war again.. Once again, the opposition have an average war log, and dont ever threaten to perfect..

    Could there be emphasis on recent war performance?.. I tend to discount that one.. have never seen it in the past..
    I notice you place high value on hero levels Puma.. I agree that high heroes tends to see lower halls than the opposition..
    that and walls.. Is funny, I always said heroes and walls win wars.. Seems like they go some way towards making winning much more difficult since the 13 drop..

    Will continue to close up the bottom end.. Will resist the temptation to drop bows, even tho the spins are now crying out for bows to go down.. and will continue to monitor.. Once the pattern is more revealed, can start adding top weight with those bows..

    Seems like the "Belinio Effect" is spreading..
    build choice would decree the opposition not so long ago..
    Now it appears that is no longer the case..

    Rushing was always by far the most prevalent account type in the game..
    But is it now so widespread, that it is almost impossible for mixed hall rosters to avoid them with the war draw?
    And if so, how easy will it be for the more informed amongst them to simply slip in a few ringers, and become an engineering force to be reckoned with..

    i hope we are not headed back to the bad old days.


    Quote Originally Posted by 2222 View Post
    We just lost our streak of 15 and the very next match we had a big advantage and perfected them (only 10v10) easily with attacks to spare. Cooincidence? Maybe.
    Congrats on getting the momentum straight back..
    But could 1 loss in 16 spins really influence the draw in such a way as to give such a big advantage, if we are hinting at Recent War Performance as a factor..

  2. #112
    Forum Veteran Thegreatpuma's Avatar
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    RE: hero levels ... they generally mimic attack skill, but not always. these guys had weak
    heroes but focused on a war army comp that they could use to either dip with confidence or cover weaker equal th.

    the hit rate and their war log shows they can't hit equals and when presented with an equal match they don't show. in fact they got 98% on us.... and only once or twice in the past 20 wars did they score over 90%. multiple times they didn't even hit 50.

    The funniest part (or saddest maybe) about the whole thing was with 5 minutes left in the war they started inviting all our members. since they were English speaking i thought they were being friendly..... nope they wanted to poach. i really laughed out loud when they said they wanted us to join them. why would anyone want to leave us with our consistent .800 win rate across more than 200 wars to join a clan that was 31-27 with half its wars where less than half the clan hits.... i guess you do what you gotta do with recruiting like it is heh.

    as for recent performance i don't buy that it's much. we've had two 20 war win streaks since about April 2019. we wouldn't get that long of streaks going if it was any more than a minimal effect. we are above average attackers but not anywhere near expert level.

    as an aside i do wonder if they are not properly weighting new levels of GI, Scattershots, and Royal champion. RC being such a huge game changer on dip attacks, it's ridiculous that we matched two accounts with level 5 RC. with belinios experience and others, it almost feels like they've left something out.
    Last edited by Thegreatpuma; 4 Weeks Ago at 11:45 PM.

  3. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by joshsgrandad View Post
    It certainly seems (and Sam also stated) that the top hall numbers are no longer matching (looser)..
    maybe there never was a checkbox, but if there were, then it certainly seems to have fallen by the wayside somewhat..
    I am quite certain top hall parity was an important checkbox, and still now, but at lower priority and looser after th13 drop

    Quote Originally Posted by Thegreatpuma View Post
    RE: hero levels ... they generally mimic attack skill, but not always. these guys had weak
    heroes but focused on a war army comp that they could use to either dip with confidence or cover weaker equal th.

    the hit rate and their war log shows they can't hit equals and when presented with an equal match they don't show. in fact they got 98% on us.... and only once or twice in the past 20 wars did they score over 90%. multiple times they didn't even hit 50.

    The funniest part (or saddest maybe) about the whole thing was with 5 minutes left in the war they started inviting all our members. since they were English speaking i thought they were being friendly..... nope they wanted to poach. i really laughed out loud when they said they wanted us to join them. why would anyone want to leave us with our consistent .800 win rate across more than 200 wars to join a clan that was 31-27 with half its wars where less than half the clan hits.... i guess you do what you gotta do with recruiting like it is heh.

    as for recent performance i don't buy that it's much. we've had two 20 war win streaks since about April 2019. we wouldn't get that long of streaks going if it was any more than a minimal effect. we are above average attackers but not anywhere near expert level.

    as an aside i do wonder if they are not properly weighting new levels of GI, Scattershots, and Royal champion. RC being such a huge game changer on dip attacks, it's ridiculous that we matched two accounts with level 5 RC. with belinios experience and others, it almost feels like they've left something out.
    Agree hero lvl corelate closely to attack skill.

    You have very big heroes advantage, but heroes lvl is only part of the story, the weakest part of being maxer is carrying a lot of weight on unused troops, I believe your opponent troops and spell lvl is also not as upgrades as your bases.

    let say your #1 base with max heroes for th12, which base will match him best? another th12 or lower th13?

    So maxer now face dilema, continue maxing path they will get more disadvantage, since now offense generally is very strong, so lower hero has better success in dipping, they better off upgrade the hall before hero, troops and spell is maxed and backfill, this is not the case when offense was weak, a mid th11 was having difficulty to 3* a max th10.
    https://www.clashofstats.com/clans/a...LPP80/members/

    Engineered clan focused on crafting optimized bases

  4. #114
    Forum Superstar joshsgrandad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thegreatpuma View Post
    RE: hero levels ... they generally mimic attack skill, but not always. these guys had weak
    heroes but focused on a war army comp that they could use to either dip with confidence or cover weaker equal th.

    the hit rate and their war log shows they can't hit equals and when presented with an equal match they don't show. in fact they got 98% on us.... and only once or twice in the past 20 wars did they score over 90%. multiple times they didn't even hit 50.

    The funniest part (or saddest maybe) about the whole thing was with 5 minutes left in the war they started inviting all our members. since they were English speaking i thought they were being friendly..... nope they wanted to poach. i really laughed out loud when they said they wanted us to join them. why would anyone want to leave us with our consistent .800 win rate across more than 200 wars to join a clan that was 31-27 with half its wars where less than half the clan hits.... i guess you do what you gotta do with recruiting like it is heh.

    as for recent performance i don't buy that it's much. we've had two 20 war win streaks since about April 2019. we wouldn't get that long of streaks going if it was any more than a minimal effect. we are above average attackers but not anywhere near expert level.

    as an aside i do wonder if they are not properly weighting new levels of GI, Scattershots, and Royal champion. RC being such a huge game changer on dip attacks, it's ridiculous that we matched two accounts with level 5 RC. with belinios experience and others, it almost feels like they've left something out.
    Not so sure I relate big heroes to skill.. although i will agree those that have them usually can hit (and it makes it so much easier)..
    i think more that it shows they are more precise and determined in what they do.. a maxer is generally a slave to that build path..

    Trouble is, the game is getting big now.. The choices are plentiful.. but for those that insist on having everything, just in case they need it tomorrow, that weight is being counted today.. And the more they add that isnt being used, the more they are at the mercy of those that choose to optimize, or even rush, since they grab what they can as they scurry thru the level..

    Indeed, the game is in a hurry now.. Even below average players can dip their way to victory over a more skilful clan, if the weight allows for the advantage to grow wide enough..
    (not aimed at you).. Mixed hall is becoming a minefield for pure maxers.. maybe its time to take a deep breath, and forget about upgrading those last few bricks, or whatever else is holding the account back from that jump.


    Quote Originally Posted by samratulangi View Post
    I am quite certain top hall parity was an important checkbox, and still now, but at lower priority and looser after th13 drop



    Agree hero lvl corelate closely to attack skill.

    You have very big heroes advantage, but heroes lvl is only part of the story, the weakest part of being maxer is carrying a lot of weight on unused troops, I believe your opponent troops and spell lvl is also not as upgrades as your bases.

    let say your #1 base with max heroes for th12, which base will match him best? another th12 or lower th13?

    So maxer now face dilema, continue maxing path they will get more disadvantage, since now offense generally is very strong, so lower hero has better success in dipping, they better off upgrade the hall before hero, troops and spell is maxed and backfill, this is not the case when offense was weak, a mid th11 was having difficulty to 3* a max th10.
    I am agreeing.. Optimising has always held the upper hand in weighted war..
    But the bigger the game gets, the greater the margin for advantage over those that need to max out before moving on..

    A maxer can no longer guarantee drawing a maxer.. Get what you need, then move on..
    Back filling comes at little to no cost, advantage wise, once you reach end game.. It simply decides how big the oppo is going to be (loosely speaking)
    Last edited by joshsgrandad; 4 Weeks Ago at 12:59 AM.

  5. #115
    Interesting thought about the top hall check. After having the exact number of top halls about 99% of the time for a long time, we now have had two in a row where we had an extra th13. Our th13s (the ones in these wars) are only 121k-124k, so that could be why.

    Contact SC here. Click here for how trophies are calculated. Click here for how cc troops deploy ( it depends) and more here. How is war map placement of max halls determined?, see answer here. Thank you SC for the new legends! However, how to fight collusion here.

  6. #116
    Forum Superstar joshsgrandad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2222 View Post
    Interesting thought about the top hall check. After having the exact number of top halls about 99% of the time for a long time, we now have had two in a row where we had an extra th13. Our th13s (the ones in these wars) are only 121k-124k, so that could be why.
    I always take on board your thoughts/considerations 2222..
    To be fair, i simply run project wars with lower level accounts (will destroy my chances come cwl this season)..

    I post my findings/ thoughts, and let you guys pull it apart (love the input from our optimisers especially)..
    The theory side is my passion.

    But Ajax lit a spark when he suggested SC dont set out to determine hall levels, during the thread where we discussed the "unweighted" jump from 12 to 13..
    Couple that with the "mismatch" threads, like this one, and it became much easier to accept that matching is changing, once it started to appear within my own spins..

    Exciting times mate..

  7. #117
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    Lol, seeeeeeee ... you see one cockroach, don’t ignore it as there will always be loads more in the woodwork I knew it wouldn’t be long before ripples started happening elsewhere, we were so steady in our matches for so long that I was sure it couldn’t just be “us” I still think though that our max bases do give advantage despite the dead weight (as you guys call it), the latest war they just couldn’t cope with our bases in the middle again. But to be fair their attacking wasn’t as strong either, their TH12 failed on our top two TH11s 2* both with average percentage. We 3* their bases from bottom up, had a 90% miss on their #2, a miss on their #4 with a newer TH11 and a “safe” 2* hit up on their TH12 with a few misses of our own along the way, so they weren’t total pushovers It was a more satisfying win ... although I was aghast they gowiped my fancy new TH9 base, not so fancy after all lol

    What you guys have said about our middle makes sense, the weight has to go somewhere and, if the majority of clans aren’t maxing and don’t include lower THs, it’s always going to go “up top” with most of our matches at this point until our TH12/13s join the fray proper I guess

    Tonight’s spin I’m including my two “weirdos” as I call them (engineered TH11 and rushed TH13) along with a near maxed TH12 and a few babies (TH6/7s), I am bracing myself for a couple of hour’s or more spin, pink walls and wonky bases but will see if it brings the TH matching a little more even with those in After that I’m going to revert to “if you’re green, you’re in” lol If our war log resembles a candy cane for a bit, so be it Our new TH12/13s have their eyes on CWL so hammer for tong upgrades until then, so will have to wait to see if evening out that top with more of them brings us back in line or not when leagues are done

    As an aside re non-maxing the troops, I was caught out recently with my Pekka as it’s low on one of my accounts. Thought to use the siege barracks, used a power potion and it didn’t boost the Pekka inside the barracks lol, so this puny little thing came out, bashed a collector and died Whole attack was a bust as a result lolololol So I’m not going to be ignoring owt before going up in future ... cos you never know what those sneaky devils at SC are going to bring out next to mess with your plans

    Interesting thread ...
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  8. #118
    Forum Superstar joshsgrandad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belinio View Post
    Lol, seeeeeeee ... you see one cockroach, don’t ignore it as there will always be loads more in the woodwork I knew it wouldn’t be long before ripples started happening elsewhere, we were so steady in our matches for so long that I was sure it couldn’t just be “us” I still think though that our max bases do give advantage despite the dead weight (as you guys call it), the latest war they just couldn’t cope with our bases in the middle again. But to be fair their attacking wasn’t as strong either, their TH12 failed on our top two TH11s 2* both with average percentage. We 3* their bases from bottom up, had a 90% miss on their #2, a miss on their #4 with a newer TH11 and a “safe” 2* hit up on their TH12 with a few misses of our own along the way, so they weren’t total pushovers It was a more satisfying win ... although I was aghast they gowiped my fancy new TH9 base, not so fancy after all lol

    What you guys have said about our middle makes sense, the weight has to go somewhere and, if the majority of clans aren’t maxing and don’t include lower THs, it’s always going to go “up top” with most of our matches at this point until our TH12/13s join the fray proper I guess

    Tonight’s spin I’m including my two “weirdos” as I call them (engineered TH11 and rushed TH13) along with a near maxed TH12 and a few babies (TH6/7s), I am bracing myself for a couple of hour’s or more spin, pink walls and wonky bases but will see if it brings the TH matching a little more even with those in After that I’m going to revert to “if you’re green, you’re in” lol If our war log resembles a candy cane for a bit, so be it Our new TH12/13s have their eyes on CWL so hammer for tong upgrades until then, so will have to wait to see if evening out that top with more of them brings us back in line or not when leagues are done

    As an aside re non-maxing the troops, I was caught out recently with my Pekka as it’s low on one of my accounts. Thought to use the siege barracks, used a power potion and it didn’t boost the Pekka inside the barracks lol, so this puny little thing came out, bashed a collector and died Whole attack was a bust as a result lolololol So I’m not going to be ignoring owt before going up in future ... cos you never know what those sneaky devils at SC are going to bring out next to mess with your plans

    Interesting thread ...
    Is a real good thread, and further enhanced with your participation..
    Shame that RaidMachine seemed satisfied with the win.. always best if OP continues throughout until the thread dies a natural death, or it wanders way off course and takes on a life of its own..

    Is nice when someone does a break down of their wars.. Any extra input always helps the readers understand what is going on..

    So working thru the post..
    First bit is the GoWiPe mention.. I dont do well with hogs, so find GoWiPe to be very efficient at th8 and early 9 still.. Couple of golem, 3 pekka, and wiz with a pekka cc.. Quake the core open and its usually a 3 if you get the funnel...

    Pleased to see you grasped the impact and reasons behind your strong middle..
    Maybe the best engineer presently in the game posts here, and he often promotes the importance of controlling the middle of the map..
    Triple figure win streaks take a long time to build, and anyone can draw a big base on the oppo at any given time..
    It would be devastating for those guys to lose that streak due to a perfect draw, so top end advantage is a fragile target to look for..
    Your war results are showing that mid roster importance.. And those top notch engi's would sure back up your statements..

    "Dead weight".. It is a common term in the war forum..
    The guys here are war orientated..
    We use the term engineering a lot (not so much recently).. But in its correct terminology..
    "Any account that is built with the MMA in mind is engineered".. It doesnt have to be lop sided..

    Therefore, most here are maxers at heart, but some things are not considered good value for money, since winning a war using a weighted roster is the end goal, when you start the spin..
    Many will include those missing pieces just prior to the hall jump tho, or will put them on the back burner, to be back filled once at end game.

    I agree with including your "weirdo's".. Nothing better than a "suck it and see" spin with a more unorthodox roster than you are used to..
    It is usually how we learn.. Throw them in, and see what changes..
    You have 24 hours spin time before the MMA spits it out.. With different time zones, new clans are starting their spin all the time..
    Likelihood is you will get a hit, as you say.. Just pleased you dont limit yourself to a tight matching window.. Those guys can sometimes stop themselves from getting a match.

  9. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by joshsgrandad View Post
    Is a real good thread, and further enhanced with your participation..
    Shame that RaidMachine seemed satisfied with the win.. always best if OP continues throughout until the thread dies a natural death, or it wanders way off course and takes on a life of its own..

    Is nice when someone does a break down of their wars.. Any extra input always helps the readers understand what is going on..

    So working thru the post..
    First bit is the GoWiPe mention.. I dont do well with hogs, so find GoWiPe to be very efficient at th8 and early 9 still.. Couple of golem, 3 pekka, and wiz with a pekka cc.. Quake the core open and its usually a 3 if you get the funnel...


    Pleased to see you grasped the impact and reasons behind your strong middle..
    Maybe the best engineer presently in the game posts here, and he often promotes the importance of controlling the middle of the map..
    Triple figure win streaks take a long time to build, and anyone can draw a big base on the oppo at any given time..
    It would be devastating for those guys to lose that streak due to a perfect draw, so top end advantage is a fragile target to look for..
    Your war results are showing that mid roster importance.. And those top notch engi's would sure back up your statements..
    most of real engineers with triple digit WS win war in the middle, mid of last year we got our 1&2 base near maxed th12 tripled, but we still win by about 10*, they could not clear the middle

    Quote Originally Posted by joshsgrandad View Post

    "Dead weight".. It is a common term in the war forum..
    The guys here are war orientated..
    We use the term engineering a lot (not so much recently).. But in its correct terminology..
    "Any account that is built with the MMA in mind is engineered".. It doesnt have to be lop sided..

    Therefore, most here are maxers at heart, but some things are not considered good value for money, since winning a war using a weighted roster is the end goal, when you start the spin..
    Many will include those missing pieces just prior to the hall jump tho, or will put them on the back burner, to be back filled once at end game.

    I agree with including your "weirdo's".. Nothing better than a "suck it and see" spin with a more unorthodox roster than you are used to..
    It is usually how we learn.. Throw them in, and see what changes..
    You have 24 hours spin time before the MMA spits it out.. With different time zones, new clans are starting their spin all the time..
    Likelihood is you will get a hit, as you say.. Just pleased you dont limit yourself to a tight matching window.. Those guys can sometimes stop themselves from getting a match.
    in a real engineered roster every bases already has offense and defense roadmap planned, and the best bases should have balance weight so it mimic the casuals, so every ounce saved both in off and def really add up, landslide advantage is guarantee except u face similar clan.
    https://www.clashofstats.com/clans/a...LPP80/members/

    Engineered clan focused on crafting optimized bases

  10. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by samratulangi View Post
    most of real engineers with triple digit WS win war in the middle, mid of last year we got our 1&2 base near maxed th12 tripled, but we still win by about 10*, they could not clear the middle



    in a real engineered roster every bases already has offense and defense roadmap planned, and the best bases should have balance weight so it mimic the casuals, so every ounce saved both in off and def really add up, landslide advantage is guarantee except u face similar clan.
    Doesn't really need to be balanced, it just helps if all bases are balanced with each other. Take my own bases for example, they are all unique on their own but they work together harmoniously. Your wars and our wars are quite different but we both have success.

    I'd say our biggest difference is that we use more maxxer bases in certain situations, got 2 win streak clans going now and it's kinda cool that I'm the one taking the top in both of them. One thing I can say is that every base I've ever made aside from my main was that they were all planned, only one where I didn't follow the plan and it took me a while to fix him. A real win streak clan should know exactly what they are doing, and every base have a purpose, and perfect weight.

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