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  Click here to go to the first staff post in this thread.   Thread: Max th12 placement on war map

  1. #21
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    If SC were to do anything (not that they should since it really doesn’t matter one whit), write one line of code to randomize the result and call it a day and let the question die a natural death.

    Sadly however, I believe all that would accomplish is new threads asking for the randomization to be removed.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tosti111 View Post
    If SC were to do anything (not that they should since it really doesnít matter one whit), write one line of code to randomize the result and call it a day and let the question die a natural death.

    Sadly however, I believe all that would accomplish is new threads asking for the randomization to be removed.


    I vote for "by clothing worn by player at time war seach began". Less layers of clothing beget higher placement. To be the #1 base, then Clash au naturale.

  3. #23
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    From my clan's experience it seems to be whoever is the most active recently or get the most war stars recently. I am not sure about how recent they take into account the data, but it seems like that way for long time in my clan.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piper139 View Post
    Just for discussion, what would be a good secondary criteria? Xp to me is meh. Date maxed might not even be a data element available. Perhaps derived from last upgrade completed. War stars? Might be good. Or just throw in something like alpha by name. Maxed is maxed so really doesn't make a difference.
    Every time I see this OP question popping up, I hope someone from SC will come here and solve the mystery...

    Sorting the bases for war weight first, then for war stars would be imo a logical way to sort war bases in the war map. Better than random, database rowid, xp points, etc
    Last edited by RagnarFurias; 4 Weeks Ago at 01:39 AM.
    Nothing here stays the same forever. You must learn to change as the game changes, or clash will force you one way or another.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by RagnarFurias View Post
    Every time I see this OP question popping up, I hope someone from SC will come here and solve the mystery...

    Sorting the bases for war weight first, then for war stars would be imo a logical way to sort war bases in the war map. Better than random, database rowid, xp points, etc
    Ive yet to hear a cogent response answering why this is needed. If all TH12 maxxed, what difference does it make if you are 1st or 10th on the list? Perhaps someone can enlighten me?

  6. #26
    Forum Champion Piper139's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tosti111 View Post
    Ive yet to hear a cogent response answering why this is needed. If all TH12 maxxed, what difference does it make if you are 1st or 10th on the list? Perhaps someone can enlighten me?
    Psychological. I know for me it was a pucker moment. I'm not the best attacker. And why should I jump other longer maxed 12s in the order? We adjust but it's a bit of pecking order thing. War map rank feels like it should matter. It doesn't, but it feels like it should.
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  7. #27
    Millennial Club Giorgakis's Avatar
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    This is why the "attacking your mirror" tactic is pointless.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Tosti111 View Post
    Ive yet to hear a cogent response answering why this is needed. If all TH12 maxxed, what difference does it make if you are 1st or 10th on the list? Perhaps someone can enlighten me?
    Itís not important in any way who is first and who is at the bottom because everybody attacks what he/she pleases but the curiosity in my clan arose and we are all wondering how it works...

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaptain Kat View Post
    Just because it checks out in your clan with a handful of people doesnít make it true.
    I have jumped up on the war map with my base too being slow to max TH12. There has been no logical explanation found and that makes sense because there simply isnít a criterium which determines how bases of equal weight are sorted.
    I would say it has a fair bit of an input at least, there maybe another factor or 2 to add to the mix that could switch the order up slightly, maybe itís hours played rather then actual start date maybe as well. I guess we will never know. It will always be a mystery

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Koksik80 View Post
    If it was random so in one war someone would get nr 1 and in the next war he/she would be number 20...
    As per rowman's post there's a difference between random and undetermined. It may help to give an analogy...

    Imagine you give me a shopping list of 10 grocery items, and I go to my local supermarket and buy them, and afterwards you ask me which order I picked them from the shelf, and thus which is on the bottom of the basket. Then you try to figure out why that order... was it by price? colour? something else? If you give me the same list next week I'll likely pick the same items in the same order - I do tend to do a widdershins orbit around the shop. If we keep repeating this, it might be consistent until suddenly it isn't... because the shop moved stuff around.

    If you tell me to pick items in price order, or heaviest first, or chilled items last I can do that. But if you don't specify that doesn't happen.

    There's absolutely no way for you to predict the order the first time we do this. If you try and guess what links the items you'd just drive yourself nuts. But is it random? No - it depends on the shop layout - and that depends on what their computers have determined to be the best layout to increase sales, which depends on lots of complicated stuff.

    From the point of you, giving me the shopping list, the order I pick them is undetermined. It is not however random and is typically repeatable and unchanged for weeks or months.

    Quote Originally Posted by joshsgrandad View Post
    The map placement is random selection, but that selection remains constant until a change in the database is done, if I have been reading the several threads on this subject correctly..

    Now then.. What sort of change would be required to the database, in order to trigger a new list/positional order?..
    In addition to what rowman said, consider a very simple bit of data: you have 1000 records consecutively in memory, each of which uses 100 bytes to store. So record 1 uses bytes 1-100, record 2 uses bytes 101-200 etc with 100 000 bytes used in total.

    Consider what happens when you want to delete record #3. That's bytes 201-300. But assuming there's no external complex stuff tracking what's where, you need the records to remain consecutive. That means shuffling all the other records down to fill the gap. So you need to copy all of bytes 301-100000 down to positions 201-99900. That's slow. And when the data is actually gigabytes in size it's slow enough to immediately break things. The same happens when you want to insert a record: it's necesary to shuffle every byte of data up.

    That structure is called an array and is pretty much the simplest. Clearly it doesn't scale up to large amounts of data. And so databases do keep a bunch of external information tracking what's stored where. And in particular this allows them to have gaps. So if it's storing records of 100 bytes, it can mark individual blocks of 100 bytes as used or empty. So when a record is deleted it just flags that block as empty. When reading data it just skips over the empty gap. When a record needs to be inserted in a particular spot it just needs to move records up or down into the nearest empty space.

    This however only works to a point - once you insert too much data there are no nearby gaps, and inserting another record can involve moving masses of data. To solve this a DB breaks the data up into pages, which IIRC in MS are about 4k in size by default. Within a page data can be stored in a linear fashion as above. But there's some external index listing where pages are physically stored on the disk. So page 2 doesn't need to physically follow page 1. And if the database needs to insert data where there is currently no space it can create a new page on the end of the database file, and just update the page index to say that data is conceptually between the old pages 1 and 2. Pages 1, 1b and 2 might be completely different places on the disk.

    Typically in a database tables are stored in a sorted order. So in a sales table you might store by product order, so that all sales for a product are always close together and can be read fast. Or in date order so recent orders are always close together in the database.

    But when reading data, if you don't specify what order you want records in, it might read the records from some newly stitched in page last, because reading data in the actual order it is stored on the hard drive is fastest. So the data might not be returned in the order that the table is nominally stored in.

    So back to your actual question... what causes it to change? Any structural change that changes the size of a record usually means the entire table is recreated from scratch: the DB copies all the data across to a new table, and drops the old table when complete. That intrinsically means everything gets repacked. So when SC added the new recuitment filter icons that probably meant the player and clan tables got completely rebuilt as they have extra columns of data.

    But even without the programmers making any changes the DB can internally tidy things up. One issue when data is added or removed is that the number of gaps in the data can become very inefficient. If rows keep being deleted you can end up with more gaps than data. These are slow because entire pages (4k) of data are loaded from disk at once. If each page contains 90% gaps and 10% rows in use, then the disk is spending most of its time reading 'gap' bytes. At this point the DB would decide internally to repack the data and eliminate most of the gaps.

    And it's even more complex than that, because the DB will keep statistics on how the data is being used and try to calculate how to work efficiently (for example the optimum number of gap rows to keep). Over time with more data, or as usage changes, it may change the resulting decision - and the DB could repack (or in some cases, even re-order) the data without any outside intervention.

    And then it's more complex than that as all the above describes just a main block of data. In addition usually there are indices listing where data is by other fields. So a sales table may have indices by product, date, shop - allowing all sales to be found for any one of those factors quickly. And the indices themselves have all the above considerations and can be repacked by the DB. Any query returning data will often start with one of the indices and the order may determined by how that's working internally.

    I'm not a DB programmer and it's probably a lot more complex than I've writtedn above. What I wrote in my pixies explanation may have sounded jokey - but the answer was actually intended to be accurate: there's strange stuff going on inside the database, and it's going to pretty much defy explanation for an outsider.

    Ive yet to hear a cogent response answering why this is needed. If all TH12 maxxed, what difference does it make if you are 1st or 10th on the list? Perhaps someone can enlighten me?
    It's human nature. We just searched, and #3 from last war is now showing as #1 in the search. He'll then comment he's upgraded nothing, and wonder why he's moved up and start asking in chat.
    Last edited by OnyxDS; 4 Weeks Ago at 10:35 AM.
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