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  Click here to go to the first staff post in this thread.   Thread: Is it time to finally kill off the engineers in war?

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Tosti111 View Post
    Let's talk about that 'advantage' that an engineered TH11 has. If you come across a clan that focusses on mirror attacking, yes it's an advantage. If you are facing clans with fewer TH11s than you it is an advantage. It can lower the overall weight for your clan. If you enjoy playing in the kiddie leagues warring with newbies, it is an advantage. It does have an irritation value against non-engineered clans.

    Now let's look at the disadvantages. It will be a non-starter for CWL rendering it a donation account only. If they are foolish enough to put it in CWL, it will get three starred. The MM does not generally match non-engineers to engineers so you will match others who game the MM as well, rendering it's advantage null. Once a clan has as their lowest member a TH10 in their roster, the MM advantage has disappeared or is close to it. That account can never advance higher without dropping defenses. We toss in the odd low level account so that we can match engineers because they are usually an easy war for us, so do others. With speed of progression today, we already see almost none of these accounts and they are dwindling rapidly as their usefulness deteriorates. That same speed of progression for everyone else is a wonderful thing, they will advance beyond it's reach and within another year a defenseless TH11 will be two TH's below max and easy opponents will be more difficult to find. It cannot take advantage of all the perks and rewards and challenges (what will they do with a hammer of building for example).

    Just so we're clear, I'm not defending engineers, I just see the expiry date on a defenseless Th11 fast approaching and I see no need to spend any time or energy trying to 'fix' it. Let it become the relic that it is, sitting on someone's trophy shelf gathering dust, right next to the grade 3 participation medal and meaning about as much.
    I agree regarding defenseless accounts other than perhaps in the most carefully manicured full out engineering clans. I disagree a bit for all engineered th11s, though. 9.11s still offer some good advantages at times.
    Contact SC here. Click here to see how trophies are calculated. I'm still thinking starting the "new" legends at Legends2 at 5500 and having Legends3 be for 5000-5499 would be good (with season resets to 5000 and 5500 depending on your trophies at season end) but overall I LOVE the Legends change. Thanks SC.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2222 View Post
    I agree regarding defenseless accounts other than perhaps in the most carefully manicured full out engineering clans. I disagree a bit for all engineered th11s, though. 9.11s still offer some good advantages at times.

    Agreed. Was trying to keep it pretty generic overall. Even the 9.11s should be seeing the sun setting on their viability and as you say, "offer some good advantages at times" which implies that they don't work all the time now and will work even less times going forward. Once we get TH13 they will become markedly less viable and by the time we get to TH14 they won't be much use at all for any serious gameplay.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tosti111 View Post
    Let's talk about that 'advantage' that an engineered TH11 has. If you come across a clan that focusses on mirror attacking, yes it's an advantage. If you are facing clans with fewer TH11s than you it is an advantage. It can lower the overall weight for your clan. If you enjoy playing in the kiddie leagues warring with newbies, it is an advantage. It does have an irritation value against non-engineered clans.

    <snip>

    Just so we're clear, I'm not defending engineers, I just see the expiry date on a defenseless Th11 fast approaching and I see no need to spend any time or energy trying to 'fix' it. Let it become the relic that it is, sitting on someone's trophy shelf gathering dust, right next to the grade 3 participation medal and meaning about as much.
    If you’re not in a heavyweight clan - we are not, most of us started this year - then they offer quite the advantage. I agree, once you largely move to TH11/TH12, it becomes a disadvantage. We are a group of 20-25 who moved en masse from another game. As we are now largely TH9/TH10 we have moved into the weight bracket where we meet these now. They are annoying, they do have an advantage. If I had the flexibility to change our line up such that they weren’t an issue, I would. I don’t. And it is enough of an issue to make us have to drop people so we try to avoid engineers - that is having a detrimental impact to new players to the game. Supercell are free to use this feedback/suggestion as they see fit. But just because you don’t see it, doesn’t mean it isn’t an issue for other clans.
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quali View Post
    If you’re not in a heavyweight clan - we are not, most of us started this year - then they offer quite the advantage. I agree, once you largely move to TH11/TH12, it becomes a disadvantage. We are a group of 20-25 who moved en masse from another game. As we are now largely TH9/TH10 we have moved into the weight bracket where we meet these now. They are annoying, they do have an advantage. If I had the flexibility to change our line up such that they weren’t an issue, I would. I don’t. And it is enough of an issue to make us have to drop people so we try to avoid engineers - that is having a detrimental impact to new players to the game. Supercell are free to use this feedback/suggestion as they see fit. But just because you don’t see it, doesn’t mean it isn’t an issue for other clans.
    Not sure where you got the idea that I don't see it. " If you enjoy playing in the kiddie leagues warring with newbies, it is an advantage. It does have an irritation value against non-engineered clans. " That looks to me to be exactly your situation.

    I can tell you that as you progress they become less bothersome. Great news is that with all the methods available to progress quickly, you won't be bothered near as much relatively quickly. You are also new in skillset, again, as you mature in your skills, you will become better able to manage them. Good luck.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tosti111 View Post
    Not sure where you got the idea that I don't see it. " If you enjoy playing in the kiddie leagues warring with newbies, it is an advantage. It does have an irritation value against non-engineered clans. " That looks to me to be exactly your situation.

    I can tell you that as you progress they become less bothersome. Great news is that with all the methods available to progress quickly, you won't be bothered near as much relatively quickly. You are also new in skillset, again, as you mature in your skills, you will become better able to manage them. Good luck.
    “Playing in the kiddie leagues warring with newbies” is just a tad condescending, and suggests you don’t get it/don’t care/don’t think problems that don’t affect your monster TH12-dominated clans matter. That would be why I have that idea.

    I am am fully aware as we progress it won’t matter any more. But that is irrelevant to it being an issue to us kiddie league players. You know, the new blood that are essential to keeping CoC fresh, and tie in with the strategy of reducing build times in earlier TH levels in order to allow people to get into the game.
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quali View Post
    “Playing in the kiddie leagues warring with newbies” is just a tad condescending, and suggests you don’t get it/don’t care/don’t think problems that don’t affect your monster TH12-dominated clans matter. That would be why I have that idea.

    I am am fully aware as we progress it won’t matter any more. But that is irrelevant to it being an issue to us kiddie league players. You know, the new blood that are essential to keeping CoC fresh, and tie in with the strategy of reducing build times in earlier TH levels in order to allow people to get into the game.
    Sorry you took it that way, that was not the intent. For those of us who have been here several years “playing in the kiddie league” speaks to a clan that has greater development, and skills or those who skillfully manipulate the matchmaker to ensure they have easier wars than they should, usually to pad a winstreak. It comes at the expense of those clans who are developing and growing and is demoralizing to them. essentially they are poaching. So yes, I fully get where you are coming from and have been there myself. You may not believe it, but it is much better than it used to be. That is partially why advancement is so quick now and why there are so many paths to quick development.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tosti111 View Post
    Sorry you took it that way, that was not the intent. For those of us who have been here several years “playing in the kiddie league” speaks to a clan that has greater development, and skills or those who skillfully manipulate the matchmaker to ensure they have easier wars than they should, usually to pad a winstreak. It comes at the expense of those clans who are developing and growing and is demoralizing to them. essentially they are poaching. So yes, I fully get where you are coming from and have been there myself. You may not believe it, but it is much better than it used to be. That is partially why advancement is so quick now and why there are so many paths to quick development.
    Fair enough, I understand now.

    I realize progression is light speed compared to how it used to be , and I estimate we have another 2-3 months of being in the danger zone, until we have enough TH11 with eagles deployed such that there is no advantage to engineering vs. us.

    I hope I have offered a couple of simple solutions to SC, but they are the only ones who know whether this is an issue affecting a tiny percentage of clans, or something broad enough to warrant a (simple) fix. I also realize that engineering is nowhere near the issue it once was, and this isn’t something that is fundamentally altering the game for all concerned. It is, at best, a minor improvement and not something to divert resources away from more impactful changes SC have planned for the game.
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  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Quali View Post
    If you’re not in a heavyweight clan - we are not, most of us started this year - then they offer quite the advantage. I agree, once you largely move to TH11/TH12, it becomes a disadvantage. We are a group of 20-25 who moved en masse from another game. As we are now largely TH9/TH10 we have moved into the weight bracket where we meet these now. They are annoying, they do have an advantage. If I had the flexibility to change our line up such that they weren’t an issue, I would. I don’t. And it is enough of an issue to make us have to drop people so we try to avoid engineers - that is having a detrimental impact to new players to the game. Supercell are free to use this feedback/suggestion as they see fit. But just because you don’t see it, doesn’t mean it isn’t an issue for other clans.
    One of the reasons you are seeing engineered accounts against you is because you are using so many of them yourself. A top th11 is noted as engineered, but really that one I’d refer to more as rushed. It does have level 2 edrags with pretty low defense, but has the heavy defense so it isn’t an advantage like it could be. 3 th10s sitting below th9s.

    Quali you yourself are engineered as a 9.5.

    I see several other accounts that are rushed.
    Contact SC here. Click here to see how trophies are calculated. I'm still thinking starting the "new" legends at Legends2 at 5500 and having Legends3 be for 5000-5499 would be good (with season resets to 5000 and 5500 depending on your trophies at season end) but overall I LOVE the Legends change. Thanks SC.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2222 View Post
    One of the reasons you are seeing engineered accounts against you is because you are using so many of them yourself. A top th11 is noted as engineered, but really that one I’d refer to more as rushed. It does have level 2 edrags with pretty low defense, but has the heavy defense so it isn’t an advantage like it could be. 3 th10s sitting below th9s.

    Quali you yourself are engineered as a 9.5.

    I see several other accounts that are rushed.
    You are welcome to come see us, if you like, and actually look at war line ups and who has what.

    While I am not going to go in detail about others, I am happy to talk about my own account. Yes, I have not put down infernos at this point. That’s to counteract some of our team who have put them down early, because they liked to build the shiny new things. I would much rather have some L3 infernos down to go with my other defenses, rather than some other in our clan who have much lower level defenses and some L1 infernos, but I am trying to retain a degree of balance, overall, for our clan.

    A good few of our people are rushed, yes. When you can build out the defenses to TH9 in a matter of months, that is inevitable. That is, arguably, by design with the way the game is now. As far as I am aware, there are no gates in place to stop people doing that? While it is not advisable, it is very much within the realms of what is possible and done by many within my clan and in the wider CoC world.

    I myself have been playing since January. I currently have an archer tower, a cannon tower, a bomb tower and 2 infernos left to place. I am largely complete on the other defensive upgrades - I have a couple of tower upgrades finishing, 2 mortar upgrades finishing, the final one to start, and the only bomb tower level. I will also note I maxed out TH9 for heroes, walls and defenses. I will also do the same for TH10. Maxing the lab is not realistic - according to clash ninja I have 6 months should I wish to max out the lab for TH10. According to that, I am approx. 90% done on heroes, 90% done on walls, 90% done on structures and 55% done on lab.

    You will also have noted that we have no one in our clan who doesn’t have the minimum defenses required for that TH? I’m well aware of the challenges of bringing all those accounts to war at once - you simply can’t do it. You will meet someone who has rounded out and simply walk all over you. But no one forced them to rush, so they have to put up with the consequences of rushing, which means limited war opportunities for them. That is something we manage in terms of war selection - Overweight, At weight and Underweight is broadly how we bracket it. Our hope is to have people at weight, and the message is (slowly) getting through.

    If you take the spectrum of players we have, and also that many of them started in January, as a random sample of new players, you essentially have a view on how people picking up the game now can play it. And in none of those bases are you able to be a TH11 without xbows, never mind infernos, while we have people with TH7 level defenses but with xbows and infernos who bring more weight to war. Which still gets back to my original point.
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  10. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Ajax View Post
    I don't think there is any chance at all of SC doing that because one disadvantage is that it would have the effect of encouraging perma-maxing, which SC definitely want to discourage.
    Why would it encourage perma-maxing? If the maxed player moves up one hall level there is no penalty, they are already at the max weight below. In fact, they are over the 90% of max that I suggested.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quali View Post
    You are welcome to come see us, if you like, and actually look at war line ups and who has what.

    While I am not going to go in detail about others, I am happy to talk about my own account. Yes, I have not put down infernos at this point. That’s to counteract some of our team who have put them down early, because they liked to build the shiny new things. I would much rather have some L3 infernos down to go with my other defenses, rather than some other in our clan who have much lower level defenses and some L1 infernos, but I am trying to retain a degree of balance, overall, for our clan.

    A good few of our people are rushed, yes. When you can build out the defenses to TH9 in a matter of months, that is inevitable. That is, arguably, by design with the way the game is now. As far as I am aware, there are no gates in place to stop people doing that? While it is not advisable, it is very much within the realms of what is possible and done by many within my clan and in the wider CoC world.

    I myself have been playing since January. I currently have an archer tower, a cannon tower, a bomb tower and 2 infernos left to place. I am largely complete on the other defensive upgrades - I have a couple of tower upgrades finishing, 2 mortar upgrades finishing, the final one to start, and the only bomb tower level. I will also note I maxed out TH9 for heroes, walls and defenses. I will also do the same for TH10. Maxing the lab is not realistic - according to clash ninja I have 6 months should I wish to max out the lab for TH10. According to that, I am approx. 90% done on heroes, 90% done on walls, 90% done on structures and 55% done on lab.

    You will also have noted that we have no one in our clan who doesn’t have the minimum defenses required for that TH? I’m well aware of the challenges of bringing all those accounts to war at once - you simply can’t do it. You will meet someone who has rounded out and simply walk all over you. But no one forced them to rush, so they have to put up with the consequences of rushing, which means limited war opportunities for them. That is something we manage in terms of war selection - Overweight, At weight and Underweight is broadly how we bracket it. Our hope is to have people at weight, and the message is (slowly) getting through.

    If you take the spectrum of players we have, and also that many of them started in January, as a random sample of new players, you essentially have a view on how people picking up the game now can play it. And in none of those bases are you able to be a TH11 without xbows, never mind infernos, while we have people with TH7 level defenses but with xbows and infernos who bring more weight to war. Which still gets back to my original point.
    Yes, and those people picking up the game and playing it without using strategy in upgrading are at a disadvantage. Rushing is a disadvantage.

    As for your own engineered account and the other engineers, I'm not criticizing you for doing it. I don't think engineering is evil. I'm just pointing out your own engineering increases the chance of matching other engineers.

    Finally, regarding the th11s you are referencing that are engineered, those aren't even the most advantageous kind. You should be able to destroy them easily for 3 stars.
    Contact SC here. Click here to see how trophies are calculated. I'm still thinking starting the "new" legends at Legends2 at 5500 and having Legends3 be for 5000-5499 would be good (with season resets to 5000 and 5500 depending on your trophies at season end) but overall I LOVE the Legends change. Thanks SC.

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