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Thread: Balancing new clans entering CWL

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    Forum Veteran RhaegarTargaryen's Avatar
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    Balancing new clans entering CWL

    I think it's time that SC reevaluate which league a new clan gets placed in because I don't think it is the same from when CWL was release. My evidence is anecdotal, so I'd like to hear if others feel this is not the case or their experiences. As someone who's been in CWLs since the start, this will actually hinder us if they make changes, but will make it much more enjoyable for new clans starting in it.

    My last 2 CWL are my examples:
    Crystal 2: new clan joins with 2 th12s, 2 th11s, 7 th10s, 3 th 9s and a th8. They finish dead last with 56 stars. 0 wars won.

    Crystal 2: another new clan joins with 1 th12, 4 th11s, 7 th10s and 3 th9s. Not very maxed either, and finish with 70 stars, 0 wars won.

    One could argue that it's because they don't have experience, but from my observation most clans here are running 2 to 5 th12s, 8 to 10 th11s and a few th10s. Occasionally you'll see a th9. Not much of a matchup. I think it's reasonable that SC look at the broader data so new clans entering CWL dont get discouraged.

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    Pro Member SkyValker's Avatar
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    Check out this thread from Onyx. It dates back to January (and we only had the option for 15v15 then?) - but I can't imagine the figures have changed a huge amount.

    https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...1#post12070963

    Very roughly, reading the chart for Crystal 2, each clan has on average:
    3-4 TH12
    4-5 TH11
    4-5 TH10
    2-3 TH9 and below.

    Do bear in mind though, the colour of the town hall is only one part of the equation. In Crystal leagues and below, a big part is participation (how many people raid, are defensive cc's filled, how organised is the clan?) You also need to bear in mind that 'how advanced' the defences are, war troops and heroes, and last but by no means least, the skill/ability of the attacker.

    All that being said however, it does appear that both those clans may have been better in a slightly lower league, but hopefully they both got demoted to the correct one now!

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    Forum Veteran RhaegarTargaryen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkyValker View Post
    Check out this thread from Onyx. It dates back to January (and we only had the option for 15v15 then?) - but I can't imagine the figures have changed a huge amount.

    https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...1#post12070963

    Very roughly, reading the chart for Crystal 2, each clan has on average:
    3-4 TH12
    4-5 TH11
    4-5 TH10
    2-3 TH9 and below.

    Do bear in mind though, the colour of the town hall is only one part of the equation. In Crystal leagues and below, a big part is participation (how many people raid, are defensive cc's filled, how organised is the clan?) You also need to bear in mind that 'how advanced' the defences are, war troops and heroes, and last but by no means least, the skill/ability of the attacker.

    All that being said however, it does appear that both those clans may have been better in a slightly lower league, but hopefully they both got demoted to the correct one now!
    I'm aware of that thread. A ton can change in 6 months. It still seems to me that newer clans entering a league are at a disadvantage. They might try the first couple wars and get smoked so they stop trying, sure, but I wouldn't want to atk up a th all the time. Gets exhausting.

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    I think a lot has changed in six months. With the slower promotion to masters and higher, and with the gold pass, I think that people are now upgrading their bases faster than their clans can climb to higher leagues, so new clans entering CWL for the first time in crystal or higher are having a tougher time than they did initially.

    Or, put another way, they have been gifted a higher league by supercell, and it is up to them to maintain their higher medal rewards or to drop down.

    My anecdotal observations are consistent with this belief. We are seeing more and more clans in M3 with almost all TH12s, and we have three times as many TH12s ourselves as we did at first, but our performance against other M3 clans is about the same as it's been. In Gold league, we see way more clans with half TH12s (rushed of course, because it's gold league) than we did six months ago, and we ourselves are fielding a significantly heavier lineup while not getting promoted. We don't want to be promoted so we're happy with that; the reason we don't want to be promoted is that we want to not see as many opponents where the bottom base is too strong for our bottom bases, and that seems to be on the rise.

  5. #5
    I agree OP. I suggested quite awhile back that they re-do the weight for new seeding every couple months but at a minimum they should do it every 6 months.
    Contact SC here. Click here to see how trophies are calculated. I'm still thinking starting the "new" legends at Legends2 at 5500 and having Legends3 be for 5000-5499 would be good (with season resets to 5000 and 5500 depending on your trophies at season end) but overall I LOVE the Legends change. Thanks SC.

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    Forum Veteran MajorJohnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RhaegarTargaryen View Post
    I think it's time that SC reevaluate which league a new clan gets placed in because I don't think it is the same from when CWL was release. My evidence is anecdotal, so I'd like to hear if others feel this is not the case or their experiences. As someone who's been in CWLs since the start, this will actually hinder us if they make changes, but will make it much more enjoyable for new clans starting in it.

    My last 2 CWL are my examples:
    Crystal 2: new clan joins with 2 th12s, 2 th11s, 7 th10s, 3 th 9s and a th8. They finish dead last with 56 stars. 0 wars won.

    Crystal 2: another new clan joins with 1 th12, 4 th11s, 7 th10s and 3 th9s. Not very maxed either, and finish with 70 stars, 0 wars won.

    One could argue that it's because they don't have experience, but from my observation most clans here are running 2 to 5 th12s, 8 to 10 th11s and a few th10s. Occasionally you'll see a th9. Not much of a matchup. I think it's reasonable that SC look at the broader data so new clans entering CWL dont get discouraged.
    I brought up the same point last CWL because with some of the onslaught of "OMG matchmaking iz terrible" posts you have to wonder if the initial placement is static, the same placement the clan would have had in the very first CWL.

    Each CWL gets a little bit harder over time so if the entrance weight is always the same, then new clans will be forced to come dead last each time. These first time clans become demoralized because they just get crushed with no chance, and eventually it comes to a point where it's almost impossible for some players to even get 8 stars considering these clans have players with a lack of experience. It also could take the clan some 4-5 months to get to the tier they should be at if a static weighting were left in place for a long period of time.

    What SC should do is have a real time weighting system for each CWL.

    You would take an on going average defense weight of rosters in all leagues starting from the open of CWL. New clans could search right away, but won't be able placed into a league until a large enough sample has been taken (maybe first 3-4 hours of CWL).

    Just manually changing the entrance weights once in a while wouldn't really get the placement right, using last CWL doesn't account for new growth and if they put out TH13, it would throw it out of whack.

    If the placement were based on an on-going average, you could place new clans 5% higher or lower than the average (or more if you want) to place them in higher or lower leagues.

    I might not be right on all of this, it's just theory but if it were static values, that is a cardinal sin in coding.
    Last edited by MajorJohnson; July 8th, 2019 at 07:02 PM.
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    I agree that the enrolment weighting has past its sell by date.

    I do think SC simply see it as fast tracking into the system, and equilibrium will be reached by any clan that enrols, once they played a season or two.
    But I doubt any new clans entering for the first time will see it that way.
    More so if its their first experience of CWL.

    How about weighted matching?. Has anyone thought about that?.
    That way wars would be fair.. (and Sam and Major may well get to Poland)

  8. #8
    Forum Veteran MajorJohnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joshsgrandad View Post
    I agree that the enrolment weighting has past its sell by date.

    I do think SC simply see it as fast tracking into the system, and equilibrium will be reached by any clan that enrols, once they played a season or two.
    But I doubt any new clans entering for the first time will see it that way.
    More so if its their first experience of CWL.

    How about weighted matching?. Has anyone thought about that?.
    That way wars would be fair.. (and Sam and Major may well get to Poland)
    I think weighted matching would be really hard to do, and you would be forced to use your top 15 or 30 and if they weren't going to be attacking, they can't be in CWL cause their weight would be giving a disadvantage.
    Engineered for success---Engineered to win---Winning is life---Tiger Blood

    Supercell enforcing fair play? Let's stop Self-Match Clans https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...left-unchecked

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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorJohnson View Post
    I think weighted matching would be really hard to do, and you would be forced to use your top 15 or 30 and if they weren't going to be attacking, they can't be in CWL cause their weight would be giving a disadvantage.
    Apologies Major.. Sometimes sarcasm doesnt transmit well.

    Would be good for your guys tho.. Could be kings of the world with a million bucks in your back pocket.

  10. #10
    Forum Veteran MajorJohnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joshsgrandad View Post
    Apologies Major.. Sometimes sarcasm doesnt transmit well.

    Would be good for your guys tho.. Could be kings of the world with a million bucks in your back pocket.
    lol I don't think it works like that. My TH12 is pretty maxed anyways so I could just use that :P
    Engineered for success---Engineered to win---Winning is life---Tiger Blood

    Supercell enforcing fair play? Let's stop Self-Match Clans https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...left-unchecked

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