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Thread: Deliberately losing to maintain cwl teir against "fair play aspect"?

  1. #21
    Forum Veteran PapaTroll's Avatar
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    Given that the new reward system favors tier and stars earned in battle, if wait until I see that we will not be the single clan promoted, and I replace all the TH12 and 11s with TH10s in wars 6 and 7, am I win trading, violating the spirit of competition, deliberately losing or spreading a few medals to the second string? How can an outside observer know my intentions?
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  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by MajorJohnson View Post
    If it would be better for a clan not to get promoted, then many clans might do that because the way CWL is setup leans them into that position.

    Putting a weak roster in, or not attacking/throwing a war are about the same thing but it really comes down to the clan. Why harp on a clan for not moving up if it doesn't suit their needs? Maybe the other clan that moves up instead of them are happy to get the promotion and doesn't really matter to anyone else.
    I don't harp on any clan that decides not to move up. If they want to play lower for less medals I have no problem with that. However, if they do it by losing their last war by 40 stars on purpose, that throws off the competition for everyone else in the group, some of whom were actually trying to take part in a competition. I'm not going to lose any sleep over it, but that is the type of tanking I would refer to as poor sportsmanship. Running a mixed roster that is equally weak for all 7 wars is much different.

    I think I've used this example before, but in a golf tournament it is called protecting the field. If you are playing in a match and you are losing and you don't really care what happens to the person you are playing against, should you still call them on a penalty? Make them put out when it isn't really close? Still try your best to win some holes? Yes, yes and yes because you are expected to protect the field. There are other players impacted by what that current opponent does.
    Contact SC here. Click here to see how trophies are calculated. I'm still thinking starting the "new" legends at Legends2 at 5500 and having Legends3 be for 5000-5499 would be good (with season resets to 5000 and 5500 depending on your trophies at season end) but overall I LOVE the Legends change. Thanks SC.

  3. #23
    Forum Elder Yachi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2222 View Post
    I don't harp on any clan that decides not to move up. If they want to play lower for less medals I have no problem with that. However, if they do it by losing their last war by 40 stars on purpose, that throws off the competition for everyone else in the group, some of whom were actually trying to take part in a competition. I'm not going to lose any sleep over it, but that is the type of tanking I would refer to as poor sportsmanship. Running a mixed roster that is equally weak for all 7 wars is much different.

    I think I've used this example before, but in a golf tournament it is called protecting the field. If you are playing in a match and you are losing and you don't really care what happens to the person you are playing against, should you still call them on a penalty? Make them put out when it isn't really close? Still try your best to win some holes? Yes, yes and yes because you are expected to protect the field. There are other players impacted by what that current opponent does.
    Why judge the clan? Blame it on the system... it allows for such things to happen. People are just playing optimally. I've mentioned it in other threads, and I'll say it again. I still think the reward system can be further improved such that the number of medals earned should be significantly higher with every higher league.

    There are plenty of clans that could be too good for their current league (always getting top spot for promotion), but getting trashed if they get promoted, so the incentive is not significant enough to move up. Things to be considered - Spending 7 days a month getting beaten up isn't fun, it may be a struggle for lower THs to get 8 stars, assuming they are even allowed to war, less bonuses to be distributed, team morale... Whereas for being the best team in your league gives you the options to decide war outcome (you are in control), more loot for every war won, positive team morale, generally more enjoyment. Easy choice if you asked me.
    Last edited by Yachi; July 12th, 2019 at 07:41 AM.


  4. #24
    Forum Veteran MajorJohnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2222 View Post
    I don't harp on any clan that decides not to move up. If they want to play lower for less medals I have no problem with that. However, if they do it by losing their last war by 40 stars on purpose, that throws off the competition for everyone else in the group, some of whom were actually trying to take part in a competition. I'm not going to lose any sleep over it, but that is the type of tanking I would refer to as poor sportsmanship. Running a mixed roster that is equally weak for all 7 wars is much different.

    I think I've used this example before, but in a golf tournament it is called protecting the field. If you are playing in a match and you are losing and you don't really care what happens to the person you are playing against, should you still call them on a penalty? Make them put out when it isn't really close? Still try your best to win some holes? Yes, yes and yes because you are expected to protect the field. There are other players impacted by what that current opponent does.
    I don't understand how running a low roster so you would not be promoted is any different than dive-bombing a war if the intention is the same? In both scenarios you are doing it to not get promoted but it would be more ethical to do it by running a roster that you know will under perform and lose a war (or multiple wars) rather than just not attacking and losing a war? How about deliberately coming last or being demoted?

    As long as not collaborating with other clans for win-trading, whatever a clan wants to do that they feel will suite them best is up to them.
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yachi View Post
    Why judge the clan? Blame it on the system... it allows for such things to happen. People are just playing optimally. I've mentioned it in other threads, and I'll say it again. I still think the reward system can be further improved such that the number of medals earned should be significantly higher with every higher league.

    There are plenty of clans that could be too good for their current league (always getting top spot for promotion), but getting trashed if they get promoted, so the incentive is not significant enough to move up. Things to be considered - Spending 7 days a month getting beaten up isn't fun, it may be a struggle for lower THs to get 8 stars, assuming they are even allowed to war, less bonuses to be distributed, team morale... Whereas for being the best team in your league gives you the options to decide war outcome (you are in control), more loot for every war won, positive team morale, generally more enjoyment. Easy choice if you asked me.
    Quote Originally Posted by MajorJohnson View Post
    I don't understand how running a low roster so you would not be promoted is any different than dive-bombing a war if the intention is the same? In both scenarios you are doing it to not get promoted but it would be more ethical to do it by running a roster that you know will under perform and lose a war (or multiple wars) rather than just not attacking and losing a war? How about deliberately coming last or being demoted?

    As long as not collaborating with other clans for win-trading, whatever a clan wants to do that they feel will suite them best is up to them.
    Both viable options for ensuring the clan doesnt get promoted.

    But I think we all know where 2222 is coming from.
    On a moral, or fair play stance, they are nothing like the same.
    I agree the clan gains its objective by not promoting, but only 1 or 2 of the 7 opponents benefits, rather than all 7.

    Cant blame the system when talking moral viewpoint, as moral grounds seeks one to do what is right, even tho options to achieve personal gain are there.
    Once again, it is no biggie, but I can only agree there is a difference between throwing stars at an individual clan, and throwing them at all clans in the group.

    I think we all know that tho. Whether we are bothered, is where opinions tend to differ.

    Just to touch on placing a bigger reward fire break between tiers..
    It would be fine in principal, but would SC increase the medals that higher tiers earn, or decrease them for lower tiers.
    I would expect SC to rob Peter to pay Paul on that one, and feel that those incapable of pushing up from the lower reaches suffer enough with the miniscule haul they dredge in.
    Sometimes we need to be thinking about the little fella.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Yachi View Post
    Why judge the clan? Blame it on the system... it allows for such things to happen. People are just playing optimally. I've mentioned it in other threads, and I'll say it again. I still think the reward system can be further improved such that the number of medals earned should be significantly higher with every higher league.

    There are plenty of clans that could be too good for their current league (always getting top spot for promotion), but getting trashed if they get promoted, so the incentive is not significant enough to move up. Things to be considered - Spending 7 days a month getting beaten up isn't fun, it may be a struggle for lower THs to get 8 stars, assuming they are even allowed to war, less bonuses to be distributed, team morale... Whereas for being the best team in your league gives you the options to decide war outcome (you are in control), more loot for every war won, positive team morale, generally more enjoyment. Easy choice if you asked me.
    If you read my post you see I gave an example of another "real life" competition (I'd say clash is equally real life in this regard). Just because the system allows for poor sportsmanship doesn't mean certain conduct can't be considered poor sportsmanship. Also, as noted in my post, my complaint so to speak wasn't about intentionally staying in a lower tier. That is not at all what I referenced.

    Quote Originally Posted by MajorJohnson View Post
    I don't understand how running a low roster so you would not be promoted is any different than dive-bombing a war if the intention is the same?
    If you run an equally weak roster all 7 wars there is no negative to the other 7 clans in your tier. If anything, it is good for them. If you intentionally bomb the last war, you might have just ruined the competition for other clans. Maybe that clan you just bombed against finishes higher than another clan. Maybe that other clan was actually trying their hardest and deserved to get promoted or finish higher or whatever but didn't because your clan just gave a 40-45 trophy win to another clan. In the former example you don't hurt the competition at all. In the latter you do.
    Contact SC here. Click here to see how trophies are calculated. I'm still thinking starting the "new" legends at Legends2 at 5500 and having Legends3 be for 5000-5499 would be good (with season resets to 5000 and 5500 depending on your trophies at season end) but overall I LOVE the Legends change. Thanks SC.

  7. #27
    Forum Veteran MajorJohnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2222 View Post
    If you read my post you see I gave an example of another "real life" competition (I'd say clash is equally real life in this regard). Just because the system allows for poor sportsmanship doesn't mean certain conduct can't be considered poor sportsmanship. Also, as noted in my post, my complaint so to speak wasn't about intentionally staying in a lower tier. That is not at all what I referenced.



    If you run an equally weak roster all 7 wars there is no negative to the other 7 clans in your tier. If anything, it is good for them. If you intentionally bomb the last war, you might have just ruined the competition for other clans. Maybe that clan you just bombed against finishes higher than another clan. Maybe that other clan was actually trying their hardest and deserved to get promoted or finish higher or whatever but didn't because your clan just gave a 40-45 trophy win to another clan. In the former example you don't hurt the competition at all. In the latter you do.
    Well and then what if you only just run weak enough to just get the win in all the wars except against the hardest clan which you run an even weaker roster because you know that war would be tight? That's what we did last CWL and gave us the choice to miss a couple stars on the other wars or in the last but in the end the clan chose to go for promotion so we pushed and were promoted.

    The only real difference I could see is that one way is obvious but the other isn't. I don't see a negative aspect, the wars would have needed to be close in the first place to be a battle for first and second. Maybe the 2nd place clan might be happy that they pushed and got promoted, I haven't seen any clans complaining that a clan let them move up instead of them.

    A clan might not want to come first because they are working for the most amount of medals and don't care that much about the competitiveness aspect of CWL, or maybe they are in Masters 1 and want to continue running 30v rosters.

    Rewards drive clans in certain direction and if it's a bit better loot not to move up, many might not want to. If it is a source of contention, that is on SC to resolve but if it is fighting just one tier lower, atleast that is better than the 3-4 tiers lower that it used to be.
    Last edited by MajorJohnson; July 13th, 2019 at 06:41 PM.
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorJohnson View Post
    Well and then what if you only just run weak enough to just get the win in all the wars except against the hardest clan which you run an even weaker roster because you know that war would be tight? That's what we did last CWL and gave us the choice to miss a couple stars on the other wars or in the last but in the end the clan chose to go for promotion so we pushed and were promoted.

    The only real difference I could see is that one way is obvious but the other isn't. I don't see a negative aspect, the wars would have needed to be close in the first place to be a battle for first and second. Maybe the 2nd place clan might be happy that they pushed and got promoted, I haven't seen any clans complaining that a clan let them move up instead of them.

    A clan might not want to come first because they are working for the most amount of medals and don't care that much about the competitiveness aspect of CWL, or maybe they are in Masters 1 and want to continue running 30v rosters.

    Rewards drive clans in certain direction and if it's a bit better loot not to move up, many might not want to. If it is a source of contention, that is on SC to resolve but if it is fighting just one tier lower, atleast that is better than the 3-4 tiers lower that it used to be.
    With all due respect, You keep focussing on the justification for tanking, no one actually cares about the why, they care about the how. Yes it is better than before, again, no one is arguing against that. IMO if you want to tank to stay 1 league below your ability, that is your choice so have a party. If the WAY that you do it messes with the other seven clans positions by moving a clan up that wasnt going to go up or keeping a clan down that was going to go up, that is a negative impact that your clan intentionally precipitated on someone else and IMO is manipulating the field. You want to tank, fine. Just dont interfere with which clans move up. We all recognize that this discussion has nothing to do with the TOS either as JGD said, it is about doing what is right even though you could do it differently.

    We all know there are clans out there who got a bad beat in round 1 by TEam BOB, and if they were in the position to tank in round 7 and artificially promote Team Sally in such a way to ensure that Team BOb wasnt promoted, that they would do it out of spite. We may not be able to stop it but that doesnt mean we should endorse it or suggest that it doesnt matter.

  9. #29
    Forum Veteran MajorJohnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tosti111 View Post
    With all due respect, You keep focussing on the justification for tanking, no one actually cares about the why, they care about the how. Yes it is better than before, again, no one is arguing against that. IMO if you want to tank to stay 1 league below your ability, that is your choice so have a party. If the WAY that you do it messes with the other seven clans positions by moving a clan up that wasnt going to go up or keeping a clan down that was going to go up, that is a negative impact that your clan intentionally precipitated on someone else and IMO is manipulating the field. You want to tank, fine. Just dont interfere with which clans move up. We all recognize that this discussion has nothing to do with the TOS either as JGD said, it is about doing what is right even though you could do it differently.

    We all know there are clans out there who got a bad beat in round 1 by TEam BOB, and if they were in the position to tank in round 7 and artificially promote Team Sally in such a way to ensure that Team BOb wasnt promoted, that they would do it out of spite. We may not be able to stop it but that doesnt mean we should endorse it or suggest that it doesnt matter.
    I was talking about how, and justification. If you are running weak rosters and miss just enough attacks to win 6 of 7 wars then you don't know that Team Bob let Team Sally get promoted but the intention is still the same. Team Bob could have been promoted but decided not to but it's morally better because it isn't obvious? I guess what you don't know won't hurt you :P

    It's not against TOS to throw a war or not be promoted as long as you are not collaborating with other teams and If we were going to be in 3rd or worse anyways, why should we care which of the top 2 are promoted? Or better yet, if we were 2nd, but the first place team threw a war against us and we were promoted instead?

    Is it morally objectionable to not move up if the clan that moved up instead wanted to move up but would not have had the chance otherwise?

    Maybe if we were talking about Champs 3 or higher it might be a different story.
    Last edited by MajorJohnson; July 13th, 2019 at 08:54 PM.
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  10. #30
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    In your example it isnt about the outcome, because as you point out it could be the same either way. It is about the intent and method of the tanker.

    If you believe the how is dependent on the clan tankings’ justification and you believe it doesnt change the outcome, please explain why you are tied to doing it one way vs another? Why would you choose a path that could affect the ‘natural’ outcome over a path that doesnt interfere with the ‘natural’ outcome at all? The only answer I can come up with is either complete disregard for anyone else in the universe and a disregard for how it negatively affects the game at a community level or it is trolling and manipulating outcomes for others simply because you can. i am hopeful you have another better reason than these.

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