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Thread: Seeing Is Believing.

  1. #21
    This was also my reasoning for how roster engineering can be created.. by using lower weight, lower down the roster, to artificially reduce the oppositions top end.
    you are looking at that wrong. the th3's artificially lower your top end for entire war weight

    if you have a 2x 10 anchor, you want those two 10s as heavy as possible with "smart" weight. the th3's offset that weight in the middle of the roster. you will pull 2x th10 (or a solo th11 or a th10 + 2x th9s) up top. if you run light th10s, you risk drawing heavier 10s from your opp. so you want mid-to-max th10s run by guys who can 3 star max th10s if you do pull the tough draw

    the higher your top, the more advantage you have in th-to-th draw. you are likely to pull weaker 10s on opp with them having stronger 9s and 8s. but due to having 2 attacks, your 10s take out their 10s and the stronger 9s/8s which mean "pffffft" to you. your 9/8s clear their lower roster
    Last edited by HonoraryGoblin; June 27th, 2019 at 12:56 AM.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by HonoraryGoblin View Post
    you are looking at that wrong. the th3's artificially lower your top end for entire war weight

    if you have a 2x 10 anchor, you want those two 10s as heavy as possible with "smart" weight. the th3's offset that weight in the middle of the roster. you will pull 2x th10 (or a solo th11 or a th10 + 2x th9s) up top. if you run light th10s, you risk drawing heavier 10s from your opp. so you want mid-to-max th10s run by guys who can 3 star max th10s if you do pull the tough draw

    the higher your top, the more advantage you have in th-to-th draw. you are likely to pull weaker 10s on opp with them having stronger 9s and 8s. but due to having 2 attacks, your 10s take out their 10s and the stronger 9s/8s which mean "pffffft" to you. your 9/8s clear their lower roster
    Ah. Thanks for that.
    I guess we just got lucky for a couple of years then.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by joshsgrandad View Post
    Ah. Thanks for that.
    I guess we just got lucky for a couple of years then.
    in the old mm that was viable. in the new mm that tries to match th levels at least at the top, the paradigm has shifted from a couple years ago

    i meant no offense or disrespect. was merely speaking to the "now"

    a lot of clans do (and did) roster engineer base-to-base with a common misconception (especially in the middle of the map) that your base drew your mirror

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by HonoraryGoblin View Post
    in the old mm that was viable. in the new mm that tries to match th levels at least at the top, the paradigm has shifted from a couple years ago

    i meant no offense or disrespect. was merely speaking to the "now"

    a lot of clans do (and did) roster engineer base-to-base with a common misconception (especially in the middle of the map) that your base drew your mirror
    I havent done roster engineering, in the "looking for advantage" bracket, since th12 dropped.
    Prior to that, we found that by simply going with .5 bases was the best way of gaining an actual advantage.
    We didnt drop our ferno, and hoped we would draw a clan that had. They would gain that defensive edge at the top, but their roster would be so penalised, that we had an easy war, simply because their middle would be pretty much non existent.

    Something changed with that 12 drop tho, even tho I keep getting told nothing did.
    But that advantage of not having ferno disappeared. Those oppo with ferno all of a sudden werent carrying a weight penalty thru the rest of their roster.
    Around the same time, our clan also swelled. Wars were generally done with only 2 of us owning most accounts in war, with the odd make weight added.
    But, although the membership was casual, some wanted in.

    Our outlook towards war changed then.
    Instead of looking for account advantage, we changed to a more rigid stretch of the roster.
    Reason being, players of any ability can enjoy, since if they cant hit their weight, there will be a smaller hall waiting on the oppo side.

    This in itself can be classed as engineering, as we continued to be successful for a while, since we still controlled the top end accounts.
    But, SC made it easy to progress your account. Freebies and events can make a base fat very quickly, unless you are on a weight watching plan.
    All good for CWL, but not for regular, especially for casuals that only have one go to attack, and that attack is now at least a level below what they should be doing.

    So far as discussing rosters, matching, and account positioning.. i think all regulars here know that mirrors are irrelevant. Everyone knows no single account draws anything in particular.
    People will simplify what they are saying tho, by saying X drew Y, and expect others to realise that they are not actually meaning mirror matching.

    And apologies if I sounded offish. Wasnt meant that way. Was simply that I hadnt time to explain anything further last night.. I probably should have waited in hindsight.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by samratulangi View Post
    I guess u will face rushed th9 more often after turning th color, since top th match still very prevalent now, so i think 30-40% u will face rushed th9.

    But nice idea u ot here, as long as u can resist the temptation of upgrading after turning th color
    Quote Originally Posted by ahboi00 View Post
    Are you sure about this?

    There is a high degree on TH matching especially on the top of your roster. I think your experiment should confirm this quite quickly.
    (2 separate points)
    Kudos to you 2 guys.
    I guess thats another of my theories blown out of the water.
    I was always under the impression that they simply use the weighting system to give the appearance of hall matching, but I guess there may well be more to it than that.

    That search, with only the halls upgraded is about to time out. seems like it was looking for more than the weights contained within the accounts.
    Ah well, guess those accounts are in for some considerable down time, unless closing up the bottom order finds a hit.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by joshsgrandad View Post
    Kudos to you 2 guys.
    I guess thats another of my theories blown out of the water.
    I was always under the impression that they simply use the weighting system to give the appearance of hall matching, but I guess there may well be more to it than that.

    That search, with only the halls upgraded is about to time out. seems like it was looking for more than the weights contained within the accounts.
    Ah well, guess those accounts are in for some considerable down time, unless closing up the bottom order finds a hit.
    my suggestion is get rid of that th3s, make a 5v5, so u may get what you r looking for
    https://www.clashofstats.com/clans/a...LPP80/members/

    Engineered clan focused on crafting optimized bases

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by samratulangi View Post
    my suggestion is get rid of that th3s, make a 5v5, so u may get what you r looking for
    Thanks Sam. Have started again without one of them, but I feel you are going to be correct.
    Not expecting the search to go well if it matches hall colours at the top, but I guess I will find out soon enough.

    as a closure, I replaced a 3 with a middle order, and matched.. 2x 9s on top of their roster, pretty rushed, but complete with bows.
    Guess it helps prove there is some hall matching going on.
    Not sure if I can clear with th8 troops, but the smoke and mirrors is dead in the water.
    Guess I just got smoked.
    Last edited by joshsgrandad; June 28th, 2019 at 12:06 PM.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by joshsgrandad View Post
    Thanks Sam. Have started again without one of them, but I feel you are going to be correct.
    Not expecting the search to go well if it matches hall colours at the top, but I guess I will find out soon enough.

    as a closure, I replaced a 3 with a middle order, and matched.. 2x 9s on top of their roster, pretty rushed, but complete with bows.
    Guess it helps prove there is some hall matching going on.
    Not sure if I can clear with th8 troops, but the smoke and mirrors is dead in the water.
    Guess I just got smoked.
    But how people always thinking engineering is about dip attacks, while top th match is so prevalent, even they may lay at the bottom of the roster
    Last edited by samratulangi; June 29th, 2019 at 05:13 AM.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by samratulangi View Post
    But how people always thinking engineering is about dip attacks, while top th match is so prevalent, even they may lay at the bottom of the roster
    Agree mate.
    Seems you and Ahboi00 were correct. It matched 2x black halls with 2x black halls, which were the highest hall in the draw.

    I read many times about numbers tending to match, but not necessarily at the top of the map.

    I didnt get what I was looking for, in that my roster looked heavier than the oppo, rather than any weight advantage, but I still saw proof for myself that top hall matching is happening.
    So at least I got something out of the project.

    It rather takes away from all those posts about engi gaining easy advantage.
    Anything gained will have to be given back somewhere, weight wise.
    So I guess the trick is to gain essential weight, and pay back with something insignificant to the result.

    Turned out they didnt bother filling cc's, so even with those bows, TH8 troops simply rolled thru.
    Guess its back to cup cake wars then in the mini clan.

    As for the main clan..
    We lost 5 on the bounce, which brought about a rethink.
    Since the casual weight was raising the bar too high too fast, the obvious thing to do was "rest" those accounts that were causing the problems.
    Since now the accounts at the top end can compete at their weight, we just had our 4th green line.

    Guess big boy wars will have to wait until we are bigger boys.
    Last edited by joshsgrandad; June 29th, 2019 at 03:38 PM.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by HonoraryGoblin View Post
    you are looking at that wrong. the th3's artificially lower your top end for entire war weight

    if you have a 2x 10 anchor, you want those two 10s as heavy as possible with "smart" weight. the th3's offset that weight in the middle of the roster. you will pull 2x th10 (or a solo th11 or a th10 + 2x th9s) up top. if you run light th10s, you risk drawing heavier 10s from your opp. so you want mid-to-max th10s run by guys who can 3 star max th10s if you do pull the tough draw

    the higher your top, the more advantage you have in th-to-th draw. you are likely to pull weaker 10s on opp with them having stronger 9s and 8s. but due to having 2 attacks, your 10s take out their 10s and the stronger 9s/8s which mean "pffffft" to you. your 9/8s clear their lower roster
    Just to retouch on this mate. i can agree with what you are saying, simply by looking at how the low level match up went.
    All their weight went into the top 2 halls, plus they didnt fill cc, so they were easily taken by TH8 troops anyway, once I upraded spells.
    But simply seeing that top hall will try to match is enough to see that gaining advantage, or at least not being at a disadvantage should be easy to achieve.
    That information in the hands of somebody that knows what they are doing is gold.

    To be fair, if top bases can hit their weight, losing wars should be harder than winning them in theory.

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