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Thread: engineered bases in war need to stop.

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorJohnson View Post
    Why should I be forced to change my base because you are jealous that you don't have one? That is what you are saying to me "it's not a matter of beating them. my argument is on principle" and "because you cannot make defenseless 11s anymore"
    same principle as why hero skins can't have special powers. only those with gold pass can get them. not available to everybody so not in the game for anybody

    not "jealousy." consistency of principle

    But you said you are winning 60-80% of wars against engineers, wouldn't that make engineering a less effective way of warring then?
    bank robbers get caught 60-80% of the time. doesn't that make bank robbery a less effective way of earning an income? why then should bank robbery be illegal?

    Also, self-matching is a separate issue and I am waiting for Darian to read up on it, maybe someone should pm him.
    I KNOW THAT SELF-MATCHING IS A SEPARATE ISSUE!

    but self-matching AND engineering BOTH work on the SAME war weight mechanics. as self-matching has shown its EASY TO HIT THE OPPONENT YOU WANT by messing with weights. with self-matching, it's hitting YOUR OWN, SPECIFIC CLAN while with engineering it is LIKELIHOOD OF HITTING ANOTHER CLAN IN A SPECIFIC WEIGHT RANGE where you have the advantage

    both use war weight to get the opponent they want

    just because WE can beat engineers doesn't mean others can or can't. but as i said elsewhere which i know YOU have read:

    "engineers suck the fun out of classic wars because win or lose, it's a waste of 48 hours"

    either they have engineered well and have carved the one star advantage before the start of war with no attack skill necessary or they have engineered poorly and are throwing up a flop

    a one star win doesn't mean jack if you know they are too weak to beat your top bases. nor does losing by a star mean you ever came close to having a shot at winning the war
    Last edited by HonoraryGoblin; 3 Weeks Ago at 11:44 AM.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by HonoraryGoblin View Post
    same principle as why hero skins can't have special powers. only those with gold pass can get them. not available to everybody so not in the game for anybody

    not "jealousy." consistency of principle



    bank robbers get caught 60-80% of the time. doesn't that make bank robbery a less effective way of earning an income? why then should bank robbery be illegal?



    I KNOW THAT SELF-MATCHING IS A SEPARATE ISSUE!

    but self-matching AND engineering BOTH work on the SAME war weight mechanics. as self-matching has shown its EASY TO HIT THE OPPONENT YOU WANT by messing with weights. with self-matching, it's hitting YOUR OWN, SPECIFIC CLAN while with engineering it is LIKELIHOOD OF HITTING ANOTHER CLAN IN A SPECIFIC WEIGHT RANGE where you have the advantage

    both use war weight to get the opponent they want

    just because WE can beat engineers doesn't mean others can or can't. but as i said elsewhere which i know YOU have read:

    "engineers suck the fun out of classic wars because win or lose, it's a waste of 48 hours"

    either they have engineered well and have carved the one star advantage before the start of war with no attack skill necessary or they have engineered poorly and are throwing up a flop

    a one star win doesn't mean jack if you know they are too weak to beat your top bases. nor does losing by a star mean you ever came close to having a shot at winning the war

    This last statement is the clincher for me.
    I realise that the final score is the yard stick by which SC measure the effectiveness of the matching, but it throws up a smoke screen with engineering.
    During that dark period when engineering ruled, it was often a 1 or 2 star at the top that tilted things. their build allowed for an anchor that was simply out of reach.
    The result was evident at first glance on prep day.

    I am still not anti engineer, but I also realise where the advantages lie within the play style.

    BTW. Puma hit onto something that I touched on with matching engi.. Hero levels.
    You probably run a true maxer break down, in that each level is done to completion, or close to.
    The reality is that your rushed 9 will be a more common build than many of the others.
    It appears that if a clan has hero advantage, then the MM will gift the opposition extra offence as a leveller.
    If that break down is the norm, then your extra levels will maybe be creating the necessity for an increase in power on the opposition, simply to keep things fair.

    Another thought needs to also be taken into consideration, is that not all of those out of sinc bases will be an attempt to engineer.
    Many times, a base that is simply rushed can give the impression of a poor engi attempt.
    Hero and troop levels is a good indicator, but only the owner can know for sure.
    Last edited by joshsgrandad; 3 Weeks Ago at 02:44 PM.

  3. #23
    Forum Superstar aTh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bazza88 View Post
    these need to be disabled from joining wars.

    We are currently fighting a 20v20 war their number 19 is a mid level th8. their number 20 is a maxed out (attack) th11 with 1 defence placed. this is utterly unfair. Disable people like this from entering into any war without having EVERYTHING placed from at least the town hall lvl previous.
    I understand normal farming attacks cannot be stopped in terms of fixing this problem, but at least you can change wars up so they cannot be entered.
    i agree with you but if thir number 20 has only one defense, shouldn't be easy to get a 3 star on his base? same way he can 3 star a base since he is maxed in attack????

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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by aTh View Post
    i agree with you but if thir number 20 has only one defense, shouldn't be easy to get a 3 star on his base? same way he can 3 star a base since he is maxed in attack????
    Agree for cwl mate, but in regular war, it is the 2 attack rule that will bring the advantage, if there is one.

    To add... The fact that he can hit higher than his position is irrelevant tho, as map position is simply defence weight in comparison to the rest of the roster.
    If they changed the map to offence, then he may well be number 1.. Same difference.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by aTh View Post
    i agree with you but if thir number 20 has only one defense, shouldn't be easy to get a 3 star on his base? same way he can 3 star a base since he is maxed in attack????
    Josh's Grandad touched on this but I want to make it crystal clear. The way it was explained to me and that made it hit home was "You can lose only 3 stars in war but potentially gain six." That is the main guiding principle behind engineering.

    It doesn't matter that a TH7 can three star it. What matters is the low war weight get's an advantage in war matching and that lowest base on the map might be able to kill the top base on the map. More important is lose three stars but gain six.
    Last edited by StormHeart; 3 Weeks Ago at 03:44 PM.

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  6. #26
    Forum Veteran MajorJohnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HonoraryGoblin View Post
    same principle as why hero skins can't have special powers. only those with gold pass can get them. not available to everybody so not in the game for anybody

    not "jealousy." consistency of principle



    bank robbers get caught 60-80% of the time. doesn't that make bank robbery a less effective way of earning an income? why then should bank robbery be illegal?



    I KNOW THAT SELF-MATCHING IS A SEPARATE ISSUE!

    but self-matching AND engineering BOTH work on the SAME war weight mechanics. as self-matching has shown its EASY TO HIT THE OPPONENT YOU WANT by messing with weights. with self-matching, it's hitting YOUR OWN, SPECIFIC CLAN while with engineering it is LIKELIHOOD OF HITTING ANOTHER CLAN IN A SPECIFIC WEIGHT RANGE where you have the advantage

    both use war weight to get the opponent they want

    just because WE can beat engineers doesn't mean others can or can't. but as i said elsewhere which i know YOU have read:

    "engineers suck the fun out of classic wars because win or lose, it's a waste of 48 hours"

    either they have engineered well and have carved the one star advantage before the start of war with no attack skill necessary or they have engineered poorly and are throwing up a flop

    a one star win doesn't mean jack if you know they are too weak to beat your top bases. nor does losing by a star mean you ever came close to having a shot at winning the war
    If a war is being decided on a single star and you can win 60-80% of the time against engineered opponents then isn't match-making already doing it's job?

    I remember during the engineering hay-day having 15 TH11 in a 20v war and the enemy having no TH11 and facing 4 or 5 of our bases that are impossible to 3 star.

    If you try to run alot of 1-cannon TH11's now, you will never find war and may even find yourself at a disadvantage if you do find one. I suspect these clans you speak of or fight, are also struggling with matches themselves.
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by HonoraryGoblin View Post
    "engineers suck the fun out of classic wars because win or lose, it's a waste of 48 hours"

    either they have engineered well and have carved the one star advantage before the start of war with no attack skill necessary or they have engineered poorly and are throwing up a flop

    a one star win doesn't mean jack if you know they are too weak to beat your top bases. nor does losing by a star mean you ever came close to having a shot at winning the war
    Couple of things...

    1. I don't feel they suck the fun out of the game. Every "engineered" clan we've come across has been a good matchup. I have never felt like it was decided beforehand.

    2. How do you define an engineer? If you want to remove them from the game you must define what constitutes one. Would a TH12 with level 1 defenses make one an "engineer"?
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thegreatpuma View Post
    Couple of things...

    1. I don't feel they suck the fun out of the game. Every "engineered" clan we've come across has been a good matchup. I have never felt like it was decided beforehand.

    2. How do you define an engineer? If you want to remove them from the game you must define what constitutes one. Would a TH12 with level 1 defenses make one an "engineer"?
    everyone who is conscious of their war weight and builds suited to maximize defense (or offense) while minimizing upgrades on less important towers/troops is "engineering." that includes me and most everyone else.

    but for the purposes of discussion:

    engineer:
    a) any person who knowingly uses mathematical war weight calculations to create (extreme) imbalances so as to intentionally reduce or remove competition due to the 2:1 attack:defense discrepancy;

    b) anyone who relies on math and manipulating the matchmaker instead of skill to win wars

    base engineer
    any base entering war which could not be built under current rules is an engineer with the clear intention of manipulating the matchmaker

    roster engineer
    a) any clan map which has base engineers;

    b) any clan map using very low th levels compared to the top th level, usually where the low th bases do not attack or are so far below the opposition's lowest bases they could not effectively attack;

    c) a war map spread where the lowest th level is two or more levels below the next highest th level (example: a th8-th11 map with th6 in the bottom slot(s);

    d) any war map with th10 or higher beneath a th9 or lower, or any map where one base of the top two highest levels is below a base two or more th levels below it (example: a th7-th9 war where a th9 is down with the th7s);

    those are all objective measures

    subjective

    e) a war map where the top 1/2 (one half) or 2/3 (two thirds) is normal weight bases with a (near) max defense in the top one and/or two slots with a low(er) offensive weight (anchor) followed by one or two mid-range defenses with a single max army composition in the profile in the second and/or third slot (or third and fourth slots)
    Last edited by HonoraryGoblin; 3 Weeks Ago at 02:07 AM.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by joshsgrandad View Post
    Agree for cwl mate, but in regular war, it is the 2 attack rule that will bring the advantage, if there is one.

    To add... The fact that he can hit higher than his position is irrelevant tho, as map position is simply defence weight in comparison to the rest of the roster.
    If they changed the map to offence, then he may well be number 1.. Same difference.
    For the first time in my war, last war our #1&2 high TH12 got 3* ed, with 119k Weight. but we still win by big margin, maybe at least 5-10*, because they were not able to clear our middle bases, especially from #10-#20, in a 30v war with TH9-12 mix

    So for all of you said war won on top, this is total opposite, war won in the middle,
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by samratulangi View Post
    For the first time in my war, last war our #1&2 high TH12 got 3* ed, with 119k Weight. but we still win by big margin, maybe at least 5-10*, because they were not able to clear our middle bases, especially from #10-#20, in a 30v war with TH9-12 mix

    So for all of you said war won on top, this is total opposite, war won in the middle,
    It's not top, bottom, or middle but quality throughout the lineup. We can cover one or two weaker attackers. But sometimes, we have a random spin where we have a weaker group. It happens in casual clans where you run with whoever is available.
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