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  Click here to go to the first staff post in this thread.   Thread: Why penalize a player that chooses a way of playing?

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Neverlucky28338 View Post
    My earler post was deleted because mods thought it was a troll. Sorry, I didn't mean to do that.
    I want to ask seriously.
    Why do people think it's unfair? When a maxer and an engineer started the game same with a single canon. Then they went different paths. Is it right to blame others for consequences of your choice?
    Who thinks it is unfair for the matchmaker in regular wars to try to make the match even so both paths have no advantage or disadvantage?
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piper139 View Post
    I have no problem with different paths. Different options. Different priorities. Each path should have equal upside and down side. For example, maxing slows you down. There is no doubt that strategic rushing can get you to complete max faster than maxing. The strategic rusher gives up some flexibility in attack options for faster progression. The maxer gives up faster progression for great flexibility. Oh minion event. Got them leveled up. War impact is debatable. Neither causes great shifts. The strategic rusher can probably hit harder and the maxer can possibly defend better. Farming, call it even. No real difference.
    Keep in mind I'm talking about average or a bit above average clans here. Different paths. But, no huge advantage. Now, lets look at the hyper rush / one cannon wonder. Very high offense. Super low to low defense. Smart ones had just enough traps, teslas and cc to zap the 7s and 8s facing them. If the truly just had the 1 cannon, not too bad. A low base could at least pick them off. The smart ones totally negated the low base they "matched" with. However, their high heroes and offense allowed them to hit two high level bases and allow mid levels to smash baby seals. The matchmaker could not figure out how to accurately weight their impact. Wars were lost before a shot was fired due to this. We were very close to quitting wars and maybe the game over it. I've seen many suggestions that might have solved it without the nuclear option supercel chose. Despite that change, the good engineers survive. I doubt they were the cookie cutter defenseless anyway. As far as the everyone could do it option, sure. If people have the time. Or inclination. Rambling a bit here. Basically, the defenseless base negated most other play styles for war. If it had instead of carrying a th7 weight and had perhaps a th10, yeah, an advantage. But not instant win advantage.

    Summary. I don't think any play style should have a "I win" advantage over others. Not maxing, not strategic rushing, not engineering. Rock, paper, scissors with some wiggle room for planned upgrades, groomed war rosters, etc. Especially not I put two defenseless in a war and I win. Now if they could have matched that with similar rosters and left the rest of us muddling along out of it, different story.
    in a strategic game, building strat to get consistent advantage should be the ultimate goals for the strategic thinker
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  3.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Neverlucky28338 View Post
    My earler post was deleted because mods thought it was a troll. Sorry, I didn't mean to do that.
    I want to ask seriously.
    Why do people think it's unfair? When a maxer and an engineer started the game same with a single canon. Then they went different paths. Is it right to blame others for consequences of your choice?
    It was unfair because it was an abnormal style of play which gave a huge advantage over any of the more normal styles by fooling the matchmaker into treating those bases as much weaker than they really were.

    And Supercell had a very hard time figuring out a "fair" weighting for those bases.

    The fact that "anyone can do it" does not make it "fair" when it is a style which negates most of the enjoyment of the game purely to gain an advantage which was not intended by the game designers.

    Nowadays, it is much less of an advantage because in normal wars, the matchmaker has been much improved, and I CWL there is no matchmaker to fool.
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverlucky28338 View Post
    My earler post was deleted because mods thought it was a troll. Sorry, I didn't mean to do that.
    I want to ask seriously.
    Why do people think it's unfair? When a maxer and an engineer started the game same with a single canon. Then they went different paths. Is it right to blame others for consequences of your choice?
    it WAS unfair because these engineered accounts such as a th11 with maxed troops and heroes had the war weight of a th5 and the attack power of a th11. get a few of these in a clan with some strong anchors and you have a huge advantage that is massively unfair. supercell started addressing it in October 2017 and so now these accounts actually match properly and wars are much fairer.

    this change is in no way punishing anyone, regardless of your feelings in the matter.
    Last edited by Thegreatpuma; 3 Weeks Ago at 01:36 PM.

  5. #25
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    Oh boy the engineer v maxer argument rejuvenated. My problem with engineered clans was always INTENT. They INTENDED to gain an advantage in clan wars. There is no other benefit besides clan wars so it was obviously their INTENT to do so. There's no reason for a th10 to not have infernos regarding multiplayer. No reason for an 11 to not have an eagle regarding multiplayer. Both add crucial defense to protect loot. Before th12 came out, engineering was rampant. What I dont like about engineering is the fact that a clan war occupies 47 hours of time. So when a clan exploits the system maliciously and makes the other clan feel like they physically CANNOT win the war, it's not good for the game overall. It is a fine line though. I completely understand the inexperienced and undeveloped player not dropping major defenses as to keep a low profile for his clan in clan wars. But there is no reason to have multiple th10s with 40/40 heroes, all orange walls, and everything max without having infernos. The intent is clear. Those players are gonna draw max 9s (who have ZERO shot to 3 star) or average medium 10s who at the time had little chance to 3 star unless they were really good (im talking pre-inferno nerf). I was always a maxer at heart and I think I can speak for many maxers here, we all just wanted fair wars, whereas engineers did not. I know what I felt when I felt wronged by the matchmaker and it wasnt good for the game. A lot of anguish came from feeling simply overmatched in a clan war. Since th12 came out and forcing people to drop all defenses before jumping, one of the best moves (slaps in the faces of engineers) that SC made. I was asking for that for years. Cannot let malicious engineers rule at the top levels.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by vincenzo1234 View Post
    Oh boy the engineer v maxer argument rejuvenated. My problem with engineered clans was always INTENT. They INTENDED to gain an advantage in clan wars. There is no other benefit besides clan wars so it was obviously their INTENT to do so. There's no reason for a th10 to not have infernos regarding multiplayer. No reason for an 11 to not have an eagle regarding multiplayer. Both add crucial defense to protect loot. Before th12 came out, engineering was rampant. What I dont like about engineering is the fact that a clan war occupies 47 hours of time. So when a clan exploits the system maliciously and makes the other clan feel like they physically CANNOT win the war, it's not good for the game overall. It is a fine line though. I completely understand the inexperienced and undeveloped player not dropping major defenses as to keep a low profile for his clan in clan wars. But there is no reason to have multiple th10s with 40/40 heroes, all orange walls, and everything max without having infernos. The intent is clear. Those players are gonna draw max 9s (who have ZERO shot to 3 star) or average medium 10s who at the time had little chance to 3 star unless they were really good (im talking pre-inferno nerf). I was always a maxer at heart and I think I can speak for many maxers here, we all just wanted fair wars, whereas engineers did not. I know what I felt when I felt wronged by the matchmaker and it wasnt good for the game. A lot of anguish came from feeling simply overmatched in a clan war. Since th12 came out and forcing people to drop all defenses before jumping, one of the best moves (slaps in the faces of engineers) that SC made. I was asking for that for years. Cannot let malicious engineers rule at the top levels.
    Interesting because my problem was never with player intent, but rather SC’s flawed matchmaker. It makes little sense to me to blame players for actually paying attention to the matchmaker in a competitive game. No matter how the matchmaker is set up, we should all be intending to upgrade our bases in whatever is the best way according to the matchmaker if we care about war. That is what I would expect anyone in my clan to do if they want in our wars. Take what you know about the matchmaker and upgrade accordingly. There is nothing malicious about it. I feel a little different regarding roster engineering, but anyway...

    Also, regarding the “vs. maxer” argument, I would add to your post to say there is NO reason in multiplayer to be a full maxer either. That isn’t the best way to protect your loot and it isn’t the fastest way to upgrade to full th12 max. It never was and it still isn’t. Now it also is bad for CWL so that is just another reason why the full max method doesn’t make the most sense UNLESS the player thinks there is some advantage in regular war, which is no worse than engineering. Actually, I guess that is a form of engineering if they think it is good for war, given the player is building in a way that is not best for multiplayer, for CWL or for base progression.

    I agree with you that it is bad for the game when the flaws of the matchmaker resulted in matches where one clan has an almost 100% chance of winning.

    There is no difference between not dropping major defenses and other engineering. It is engineering.

    I don’t differentiate between building a base to “avoid a disadvantage” and to “gain an advantage” because they mean the same thing. It has always been on SC to improve the matchmaker to try to remove the flaws, not on the player to stick their head in the sand, ignore the flaws and intentionally build their base in a way that creates a disadvantage. If some war player has gold to spend and they know spending it on defense A would be better for war than spending it on defense B and they choose to spend it on defense B anyway, they are selfish. That’s nothing to be proud of.
    Contact SC here. Click here to see how trophies are calculated. Main clouds thread here. My tips/thoughts on Legends here. My suggested legends changes found here. Although now I expect we will just wait for project blue skies. Fingers crossed.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2222 View Post
    Interesting because my problem was never with player intent, but rather SC’s flawed matchmaker. It makes little sense to me to blame players for actually paying attention to the matchmaker in a competitive game. No matter how the matchmaker is set up, we should all be intending to upgrade our bases in whatever is the best way according to the matchmaker if we care about war. That is what I would expect anyone in my clan to do if they want in our wars. Take what you know about the matchmaker and upgrade accordingly. There is nothing malicious about it. I feel a little different regarding roster engineering, but anyway...

    Also, regarding the “vs. maxer” argument, I would add to your post to say there is NO reason in multiplayer to be a full maxer either. That isn’t the best way to protect your loot and it isn’t the fastest way to upgrade to full th12 max. It never was and it still isn’t. Now it also is bad for CWL so that is just another reason why the full max method doesn’t make the most sense UNLESS the player thinks there is some advantage in regular war, which is no worse than engineering. Actually, I guess that is a form of engineering if they think it is good for war, given the player is building in a way that is not best for multiplayer, for CWL or for base progression.

    I agree with you that it is bad for the game when the flaws of the matchmaker resulted in matches where one clan has an almost 100% chance of winning.

    There is no difference between not dropping major defenses and other engineering. It is engineering.

    I don’t differentiate between building a base to “avoid a disadvantage” and to “gain an advantage” because they mean the same thing. It has always been on SC to improve the matchmaker to try to remove the flaws, not on the player to stick their head in the sand, ignore the flaws and intentionally build their base in a way that creates a disadvantage. If some war player has gold to spend and they know spending it on defense A would be better for war than spending it on defense B and they choose to spend it on defense B anyway, they are selfish. That’s nothing to be proud of.
    Extremely fair points all around I really cant argue with ya. I have eased up on my feelings about it in general a touch. The roster engineering though yes that is appalling. Long story short, THANK GOD FOR CWL. Love CWL and everything about it

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2222 View Post
    Interesting because my problem was never with player intent, but rather SC’s flawed matchmaker. It makes little sense to me to blame players for actually paying attention to the matchmaker in a competitive game. No matter how the matchmaker is set up, we should all be intending to upgrade our bases in whatever is the best way according to the matchmaker if we care about war. That is what I would expect anyone in my clan to do if they want in our wars. Take what you know about the matchmaker and upgrade accordingly. There is nothing malicious about it. I feel a little different regarding roster engineering, but anyway...

    Also, regarding the “vs. maxer” argument, I would add to your post to say there is NO reason in multiplayer to be a full maxer either. That isn’t the best way to protect your loot and it isn’t the fastest way to upgrade to full th12 max. It never was and it still isn’t. Now it also is bad for CWL so that is just another reason why the full max method doesn’t make the most sense UNLESS the player thinks there is some advantage in regular war, which is no worse than engineering. Actually, I guess that is a form of engineering if they think it is good for war, given the player is building in a way that is not best for multiplayer, for CWL or for base progression.

    I agree with you that it is bad for the game when the flaws of the matchmaker resulted in matches where one clan has an almost 100% chance of winning.

    There is no difference between not dropping major defenses and other engineering. It is engineering.

    I don’t differentiate between building a base to “avoid a disadvantage” and to “gain an advantage” because they mean the same thing. It has always been on SC to improve the matchmaker to try to remove the flaws, not on the player to stick their head in the sand, ignore the flaws and intentionally build their base in a way that creates a disadvantage. If some war player has gold to spend and they know spending it on defense A would be better for war than spending it on defense B and they choose to spend it on defense B anyway, they are selfish. That’s nothing to be proud of.
    Maybe some players just want an equal war, that is decided by attacking and basebuilding skill. Not by who is outmatching the other with their number of th11s. Another reason to max is to get the full experience of that th level. Engineering often means you only upgrade a few troops and thats boring in terms of strategy diversity.

    As a playerbase you have to see it as a whole, in the long run more and more wars would be completely lopsided and clanwars wouldn't be fun anymore (at least not for mixed Clans). Imo its selfish to engineer even though you know that it will ruin clanwars.

    Those are the reasons why I never engineered, even though I had the necessary knowledge about war weight. My goal never was to gain an advantage in war. Wars with advantage on our side felt boring and unfair as well as wars with disadvantage for us.

    That time period, where engineering was at its peak, was terrible for me. I even left the Clan I spent 3 years in because of the bad matchups we had. I then joined a bigger Clan with heavier roster, where engineering wasn't such a problem. And since th12 came out clanwars got much better.

    I'm happy that finally most wars are actually decided by skill, as it should be. As a th12 I have fun as never before and I like the challenge of tripling other th12s.

  9. #29
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    My biggest issue with the old engineering pro or con debate was with people who object to attempts to gain an advantage. It's a strategy game; figuring out the most advantageous way to upgrade is what players do.

    The problem wasn't that people were trying to get an advantage, the problem was that the game gave those people too much of an advantage. I am quite pleased that the pendulum swung back to the middle, and would like it to not swing across to the other side (penalizing people who plan).

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2222 View Post
    Interesting because my problem was never with player intent, but rather SC’s flawed matchmaker. It makes little sense to me to blame players for actually paying attention to the matchmaker in a competitive game. No matter how the matchmaker is set up, we should all be intending to upgrade our bases in whatever is the best way according to the matchmaker if we care about war. That is what I would expect anyone in my clan to do if they want in our wars. Take what you know about the matchmaker and upgrade accordingly. There is nothing malicious about it. I feel a little different regarding roster engineering, but anyway...

    Also, regarding the “vs. maxer” argument, I would add to your post to say there is NO reason in multiplayer to be a full maxer either. That isn’t the best way to protect your loot and it isn’t the fastest way to upgrade to full th12 max. It never was and it still isn’t. Now it also is bad for CWL so that is just another reason why the full max method doesn’t make the most sense UNLESS the player thinks there is some advantage in regular war, which is no worse than engineering. Actually, I guess that is a form of engineering if they think it is good for war, given the player is building in a way that is not best for multiplayer, for CWL or for base progression.

    I agree with you that it is bad for the game when the flaws of the matchmaker resulted in matches where one clan has an almost 100% chance of winning.

    There is no difference between not dropping major defenses and other engineering. It is engineering.

    I don’t differentiate between building a base to “avoid a disadvantage” and to “gain an advantage” because they mean the same thing. It has always been on SC to improve the matchmaker to try to remove the flaws, not on the player to stick their head in the sand, ignore the flaws and intentionally build their base in a way that creates a disadvantage. If some war player has gold to spend and they know spending it on defense A would be better for war than spending it on defense B and they choose to spend it on defense B anyway, they are selfish. That’s nothing to be proud of.
    very good points, and strategic rushing is best path with both benefits in normal wars and cwl, totally agree
    https://www.clashofstats.com/clans/a...LPP80/members/

    Engineered clan focused on crafting optimized bases

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