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Thread: The math behind collectors: why something has got to give

  1. #1

    The math behind collectors: why something has got to give

    I have a tendency to be longwinded, so I'll keep this as short as possible. Demanding new collectors levels and/or increasing their effectively has been long called for. The new loot system had increased that need all the more. As so well put by Exiist in this thread, the new system is actually very beneficial IF loot is increased. I won't go into it, since I fully agree with his reasoning. Just read it.

    SC, on the other hand is extremely cautious. As once again demonstrated in this quote by Steve:

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperSteve[Supercell] View Post
    We're always very cautious about adding additional resources to the game.

    Why?

    Throwing in a bunch of new loot can completely unbalance the economy and therefore ruin the game. When we do add additional resources, we do so cautiously... so while it may seem to make sense to say hey, there are not enough resources in the game, let's add new collector levels, it may not be the best way to boost resources for players.

    Also keep in mind that higher level upgrades should cost more and take more time and effort to achieve. That level 12 cannon isn't as much of an accomplishment if you didn't have to work hard to get it.

    While I totally understand the frustration around not having enough loot I would say that we're going to look into other ways to relieve loot pressures rather than the quick and easy, but not too elegant and potentially game breaking addition of new collector levels at this time.

    That's not to say that it won't happen or it is ruled out, just that there are no current plans to do so!
    What it boils down to is that we are beginning to see the positives of this new system, but we lack the resources to fully benefit. Much like a computer with a brand new CPU, but an old VGA-card and old RAM. It bottlenecks.

    As Steve usually asks for concrete suggestions, I decided to do some math with what data we have, and try to take a different approach instead of simply screaming for change.

    As I see it, collectors serve 2 purposes in this game:
    1) Passively collect resources for the player to use for upgrading and attacking. This assures a minimum income.
    2) Allow players to harvest collector loot from other players, augmenting his own collector loot and stolen loot.

    I became curious what the actual worth of collector resources are as equated to the total building costs and time to fully max a TH. In the table below I used the total gold, elixer and building time to calculate the % that collectors provide to completing your TH upgrades.

    Simply put: how much resources do collectors give you in the x amount of build days you have, compared to the total needed to max said TH from having maxed the previous TH. This table included the upgrade time for collector in TH7.


    TH7 TH8 TH9 TH10
    Gold Elixer Gold Elixer Gold Elixer Gold Elixer
    % of total needed that is earned from collectors 54% 43% 34% 49% 24% 48% 18% 56%
    % gold including walls 22% 15% 3,5% 3,8%





    Note that I used 5 builders in this calculation. With less builders there would be more upgrade time and therefore more collected loot. Also, needless to say, tons of resources are stolen and spent on searches, attacking, spells and traps. The point of the graph however is not the exact numbers, but the trend over the TH's. Though the numbers do give an indication of a collectors worth.

    The trend in the graph shows that as you become stronger, you are supposed to become more reliant on attacking because you have a stronger army. The loot penalty in the old system already more or less destroyed that principle, but all in all, it's a logical way of thinking. The current systems allows stronger players to be better rewarded, but it more depended on available loot. What's next for TH11? 1% of upgrade costs comes from collectors?

    I think most number speak for themselves. A theoretical 18% (probably closer to 10% after deducting stolen loot and expenses) addition to the whole of TH10 seems extremely poor. I sincerely doubt that adding a new collector level will disrupt 'the economy'.

    If you want a concrete proposal Steve, I'll give you one:

    TH8: lvl 12 collectors 3500 g/ph - Storage 150.000
    TH9: lvl 13 collectors 4000 g/ph - Storage 150.000
    TH10: lvl 14 collectors 4500 g/ph - Storage 175.000

    I've gone easy on the the storage capacity. It's an important factor, as too high a capacity would increase loot from inactives to an insane amount. This of course can be tweaked with.

    Following the same calculations we would end up with:

    TH7 TH8 TH9 TH10
    Gold Elixer Gold Elixer Gold Elixer Gold Elixer
    % of total earned from collectors 54% 43% 40% 57% 32% 64% 27% 83%

    I will disregard the walls since they will never become relevant for these statistics because of the pricing. Can't have em all after all. As you see elixer would become more abundant after completing TH8, which makes sense because of increased costs for armies and spells. This would also attempts to solve the elixer problem the cupping players are coping with.

    I'll end my ramblings here. I welcome any other insights/conclusions.
    TH10 | Level 120 | Trophy record 3200 | Non-stop clan war | Analysis: Thoughts on TH11 and beyond | The Math Behind Collectors

  2. #2
    Senior Member JustAnotherBen's Avatar
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    Good idea, lots of effort put in aswell You get my vote

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  3. #3
    He who has not yet claimed his title dahimi's Avatar
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    The logical fallacy here is treating gold and elixir as being related.

    Each is treated separately. Comparing the two is like looking at the number of rolls of toilet paper in your house and using that to estimate the number of cars you should have in your garage.

    If gold is too rare, the argument needs to be made independent of elixir and the solution should also be independent of elixir.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by dahimi View Post
    The logical fallacy here is treating gold and elixir as being related.

    Each is treated separately. Comparing the two is like looking at the number of rolls of toilet paper in your house and using that to estimate the number of cars you should have in your garage.

    If gold is too rare, the argument needs to be made independent of elixir and the solution should also be independent of elixir.
    I'm not sure what you mean. I did treat them seperately. Combining both percentages would make absolutely no sense. It just happens that gold is scarce for several reasons and elixer can also be scarce in certain situations. Increased levels adresses both of these issues without making them the same.
    TH10 | Level 120 | Trophy record 3200 | Non-stop clan war | Analysis: Thoughts on TH11 and beyond | The Math Behind Collectors

  5. #5
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    Nice work on the visuals. SC admitted the loot system was designed for when TH8 was the peak of the game. I think it is clear that the number/level of colletors needs to be examined next.

  6. #6
    Fresh Spawn
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    Great post. Makes sense and is easy to understand .. Looks like it would work well

  7. #7
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    At the end of the day there's not enough resources. You know it, I know it and the tree clapping girls know it. There's a fine line between making players earn enough for upgrading a cannon and forcing them to grind away trying to scrape together enough resources for one. If they make us grind too much on a what is supposed to be "portable" game they are going to lose a lot of players. I've maxed my base pretty much. All I have left with TH10 is a few Hero upgrades and Walls. I'm keeping up with the updates at this point in the game without opening my wallet. I feel sorry for players with stuff left to upgrade though. Expensive items that will take forever to save for because the game is so punishing against collecting resources. I make a few topics to try to address serious issues I see with the game in an effort to help the whole CoC community in the hope SC listen. They're going to wait a while to see how the new loot system plays out before changing anything with resources. These boosts are throwing the whole thing out of w♥♥♥♥ especially when no new resources are being introduced and the one's we have left are being eaten at a faster rate than before. Have to wait and see what happens I guess...

  8. #8
    Millennial Club J011Y1ND1AN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dahimi View Post
    The logical fallacy here is treating gold and elixir as being related.

    Each is treated separately. Comparing the two is like looking at the number of rolls of toilet paper in your house and using that to estimate the number of cars you should have in your garage.

    If gold is too rare, the argument needs to be made independent of elixir and the solution should also be independent of elixir.
    I think what OP is trying to say is that the gold and elixir are separate entities, as is dark elixir, but the solution to the problem involving resources (gold at the moment) will be alleviated with the introduction of his system. If, god forbid, this game would have an elixir shortage, this solution would work for it as well

    EDIT: The problem I see with this argument is that the OP fails to recognize the actual numbers, rather than percentages. I understand that these graphs were made to demonstrate that people do indeed benefit wholly from collectors, but failed to recognize the "time" and "amount" aspect of upgrades, and this is a rather large variable in the loot equation
    Last edited by J011Y1ND1AN; December 18th, 2013 at 10:44 PM.

  9. #9
    Millennial Club CHINOBEER's Avatar
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    If they increased collector levels i wouldn't complain. Might hurt SCs bottom line though because that's less resources gemmers will gem
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  10. #10
    Forum Master daz258's Avatar
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    Excellent post. Makes perfect sense.

    Also very happy you held back on boosting the storage element of the pumps, as I believe that is one of the main reasons SuperCell are reluctant to move there.

    Obviously as you upgrade your hall raiding should be more important, but giving a bit more support from pumps is also important. You nailed that in the detail here.

    Please for the love of god take notice SuperCell, just like you said with the loot system change. It was outdated and needs to be fixed. The pump rate is too outdated from TH8 onwards and needs some love.

    Such a change would give the new loot system a much greater chance to fulfil it's intended purpose.
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