CWL - Set minimum thresholds to mitigate sandbagging

[joshsgrandad]

Biggest down side to penalising clans for playing below their account strength, is that it will hurt the lesser skilled players/clans that will naturally play below their weight.
Therefore, it would be much better to use rewards to promote effort instead. Make it so that under performing is simply unprofitable.
That way, the only heavier rosters to be seen in the lower levels would be those that need the extra weight in order to compete, rather than sandbaggers.
Equilibrium can be achieved, but not until the medal system is constructed in such a way that effort on the playing side is required in order to gain sufficient rewards.
In my view, the unweighted ladder should allow for "actual fair" matches, whereby more skilled players will give up "weight" to lesser skilled ones.
But medals are dictating the system, so that is where the catalyst is. Push to promote positive action and growth, rather than penalising inaction. Think positives as a solution, rather than negatives in order to try and dissuade.

[MajorJohnson]

Biggest down side to penalising clans for playing below their account strength, is that it will hurt the lesser skilled players/clans that will naturally play below their weight.
Therefore, it would be much better to use rewards to promote effort instead. Make it so that under performing is simply unprofitable.
That way, the only heavier rosters to be seen in the lower levels would be those that need the extra weight in order to compete, rather than sandbaggers.
Equilibrium can be achieved, but not until the medal system is constructed in such a way that effort on the playing side is required in order to gain sufficient rewards.
In my view, the unweighted ladder should allow for "actual fair" matches, whereby more skilled players will give up "weight" to lesser skilled ones.
But medals are dictating the system, so that is where the catalyst is. Push to promote positive action and growth, rather than penalising inaction. Think positives as a solution, rather than negatives in order to try and dissuade.

How can you really tell which is a rushed player and which is a skilled player?

In one of our wars we had a player with his donation TH12 account with 20 20 20 heroes and mixed level troops and all lvl 1 defense. He has a max TH12 and fights in an all TH12 clan and with his donation account, 3 stars a near max TH12.

How could you tell that he is skilled, based on his account?

[StormHeart]

I realize the point of CWL is to have no algorithms for matchmaking, but with the sandbagging of clans to intentionally drop levels, as well as the number of high level bases in low-to-mid level leagues, it is sucking the enjoyment out of this aspect of the game ... 4+ TH12s in Gold Level 1? There should be some minimal expectation that the makeup of a lineup can go no lower than “whatever” tier, so sandbag to that tier if you want, but that is as far as you can drop ...

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No, we never intentionally lose in order to drop to a lower league. Still, this is not the way to address this.

The solution is to fix the rewards system. Then only trolls will intentionally drop and some will do that just to troll.

It is already a bad practice to do this but some clans don't get it. But, if you have two clans and one you take low bases in one league once and then take your good bases to that league next time, you might get more trophies doing that.

If you have one clan and intentionally lose you're hurting yourself. You are better off fighting and getting what you can rather than get nothing one time and something the next time but many clans are too short sighted to see this.

Fix the rewards and that will solve the issue except for trolls and nothing will fix insanity but maybe medication.

#medicatethetrolls lol

[CaptainMayhem]

Then treat sandbagging as a form of “cheating” and have consequences to discourage it from happening ... the premise was that over time CWL would shake out and be a “fair” form of ladders ... from our experience (we’ve been active in every CWL), sandbagging is getting worse each season ... so we believe it is going to take quite some time for CWL to reach its intended equilibrium unless something is done to mitigate the behavior ...

How exactly would you determine those that sandbag(cheaters as you call them) from people who rush or aren't the best attackers?

I hope you realize that a player that has a higher level townhall then your base doesn't make them a sandbagged. Have you seen that person attack an equally weighted base? I know players that have max th12 offense and struggle to 3 star max th11.

I understand that its frustrating to earn stars when your opponents are all stronger than you. Our clan had 2 somewhat fair matchups last cwl with the other 5 being at a severe disadvantage. We still finished 4th.

[solper]

I just think every league need a top 10, then CWL would be perfect

[2222]

I agree sandbagging is a problem and it should be addressed. Setting a minimum threshold would only impact one form, though, which is the clan that drops very low (or gets placed very low and rotates players). That isn't even the most effective form of farming medals. The more effective (and probably more common) problem is the clan playing just one or two tiers lower and this minimum threshold idea likely couldn't address that.

I think it would be better to instead change the reward system to always award more medals the higher the clan is. The key is to stop awarding medals based on wins and stars, both of which are easier to get lower, and award medals instead based on the tier and place the clan finishes. https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...wards-Problems

[Thegreatpuma]

How can you really tell which is a rushed player and which is a skilled player?

In one of our wars we had a player with his donation TH12 account with 20 20 20 heroes and mixed level troops and all lvl 1 defense. He has a max TH12 and fights in an all TH12 clan and with his donation account, 3 stars a near max TH12.

How could you tell that he is skilled, based on his account?

you can't, but i don't think that was Josh's point.

CWL promotes based on clan performance. you don't need to know the skill level of a particular player. In a properly functioning ladder (I.E. devoid of sandbagging or intentionally manipulating results) if the clan is heavier than the tier average then they are either less skilled overall, or added some good players since the last CWL.

[MossackFonseca]

I realize the point of CWL is to have no algorithms for matchmaking, but with the sandbagging of clans to intentionally drop levels, as well as the number of high level bases in low-to-mid level leagues, it is sucking the enjoyment out of this aspect of the game ... 4+ TH12s in Gold Level 1? There should be some minimal expectation that the makeup of a lineup can go no lower than “whatever” tier, so sandbag to that tier if you want, but that is as far as you can drop ...

My clan has a bunch of th9/10 that never get to participate in cwl, so for this latest cwl we put them into an old feeder clan that we weren't using. Our lineup was:

6 th10 - 5 with infernos and mostly max heroes/defense, 6th was brand new th10
9 th9 - all but 1 with xbows, mostly 15/15 or so heroes with a few more like 25/25

It was our first cwl in that clan, so our bases determined league (gold 2). We ended up in gold 2. 1 war was a slight mismatch in our favor (on paper), 3 were a slight mismatch in opponents favor, and 3 were *ruh roh, we're getting hammered by all these th12/11*. We absolutely destroyed 5 opponents, beat one 34-33, and lost one 39-30, and we got 1st overall in group by 3 stars.

Based upon what we saw, we are fully expecting to see significant mismatches in every war for next cwl, including a couple of clans with 3-4 th12s. Perhaps we'll drop back down to gold 2, but I doubt it. Everybody uses his attack every time, and we have experience going for 2* on higher ths. We'll still win 3-5 wars I bet.

[MossackFonseca]

I agree that something needs to be done, but not sure how to frame a solution. I think there are a couple things going on...one that's probably a natural migration of engineered bases that started very low in the ladder structure, and are now settling somewhere in the gold tiers. However, I also think that clans who have zero desire to chase the upper ladder tiers have realized (like the rest of us) that the medal differential is too big to risk moving up a tier.

Let's use a move from Gold 2 to Gold 1 as an example (which happens to be where our clan is now). If your clan goes 5-2 at Gold 2, and you played every match, an average player probably scores about 16 stars and brings home 166 medals (ignore bonuses, but your clan would have 7 to hand out). You probably didn't move up with that record, so next CWL, you can do it again...play some of your lower villages for a couple matches to increase the likelihood that you lose (they try hard, but lose a match or two that you might have won if you played your "A team"). 166 medals every CWL.

If you move to Gold 1, that same team likely goes 3-4 while average players have a tougher time scoring...maybe 12 stars. Result...117 medals (and only 5 bonuses to spread around). For playing hard and moving up, you were penalized 50 medals.

If clans are using CWL rewards to grow their villages...which they SHOULD...there's really no incentive to move up. It's far more lucrative to stay put...make it hard on yourself to win once or twice (let your lower players pick up a few extra medals along the way), and collect bigger loot.

The incentive to move up just isn't there. Even if you performed exactly the same from Gold 2 to Gold 1 (5-2 with 16 stars), your total medals only moves from 166 to 171. So...harder tier, tougher opponents for only +5 medals? No thanks, I'll stay here and play easier opponents for essentially the same loot.

Until THAT problem is solved, we're gonna have to live with sandbagger clans. So far we haven't been one, but I'll admit...it sure looks like a good idea.

Yeah, seems like the medal rewards were not well thought out. The difference between gold 1 and crystal 3 is pretty good, enough to try to make the jump, ditto for going from crystal 1 to master 3. But, for moving to a higher tier in the same class, say master 2 to master 1, the spike in difficulty is so extreme and increase in medal rewards so miniscule that it's tough for clans to avoid the temptation of giving their th9s a shot to show their stuff in a few wars.

I'm still going to do my best every time, and so will my clan, but it does feel like a revamping of the rewards structure would be a good idea.

[joshsgrandad]

How can you really tell which is a rushed player and which is a skilled player?

In one of our wars we had a player with his donation TH12 account with 20 20 20 heroes and mixed level troops and all lvl 1 defense. He has a max TH12 and fights in an all TH12 clan and with his donation account, 3 stars a near max TH12.

How could you tell that he is skilled, based on his account?

You dont need to try and distinguish one from the other, if you are looking to reward rather than penalise.
The way to do that, is to make it beneficial to play as high as possible.

The clans that actually need that weight buffer due to lacking skills will still be there, as they wont have the ability to climb any higher.
But the more skilled clan would be rewarded for moving up, so I would expect them to do so.

Medals, and how they are distributed is ruling the game. even after only 5 seasons that is obvious (except at the top of the tree).
So if they wish to move the game in a particular direction, then medal allotment is key to achieving the desired effect.