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  Click here to go to the first staff post in this thread.   Thread: The state of the game

  1. #41
    Forum Superstar Piper139's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gfyh View Post
    I don't believe in Crabby's case, his clan particularly cares how much 'meaning' his ranking has in such a tournament, at least not in the notoriety sense. His ability to fight similarly weighted clans is, and have a chance to receive greater rewards for besting those clans is.

    I'm not naive about perma-based players or clans, but if they're not going to budge, they're just not going to. However, this post is for the many clans like Crabby's that are progressing... They're just not all 12's yet, or may never be.
    It all depends on the clan. We float around 40 members give or take. We range from th9 to 12. We rarely accept any lower the, maybe a 8 that's close to 9. It's been our experience in regular wars that wider town hall spreads tend to lead to poor matches. Of our members, about half war. The rest prefer farming and clan games. For league wars, they help with donations but are not included in actual wars, just on the roster for medals. We placed in crystal 1 the first round. Did ok that one, marginal the next, and got our tails kicked in the third and dropped to crystal 2. This round it looks like a couple may be stronger, a couple weaker, 3 about the same strength. Our war mix is 2, rarely 3 12s, 1 or 2 9s, rest pretty even split 11s and 10s. I rotate through the week to give everyone that wants to a decent number of attacks. It wasn't fun getting pummeled to drop a league but it is part of a ladder system. For now, we appear to be in the right place. As long as we win 3 or 4 wars, I'll be quite happy. You can run mixed level progressing clans but yoummmay have to take some lumps to get to a more appropriate level. Even so, there will be mismatches. Someone Wil either be more progressed, better attackers, or both and move past you. You will eventually do the same. I wouldn't be interested in a weight matched war league because then we're back to the most important skill being how well you can manipulate the matchmaker.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by gfyh View Post
    I don't believe in Crabby's case, his clan particularly cares how much 'meaning' his ranking has in such a tournament, at least not in the notoriety sense. His ability to fight similarly weighted clans is, and have a chance to receive greater rewards for besting those clans is.

    I'm not naive about perma-based players or clans, but if they're not going to budge, they're just not going to. However, this post is for the many clans like Crabby's that are progressing... They're just not all 12's yet, or may never be.
    The point of the greater rewards though is that you're fighting in an open competition, rather than one weighted to only be fighting someone similar to yourself.

    If your entire argument is "better rewards for weighted wars", then just suggest better rewards for regular/weighted wars...as opposed to a much more difficult method of trying to make a hybrid which seems full of problems.

    In the end though, i don't think you can simultaneously reward people for their low weight even if they're trying to progress without inadvertently rewarding people for keeping a war weight low intentionally. There's already a mechanism for people who want weighted wars to have weighted wars...if the argument is "let's give them some kind of medals more than the zero we give them today", I think that might be reasonable depending upon the method and number given. Medals are essentially just a currency in the game now. I just don't think creating a convoluted CWL-type system for weighted wars makes as much sense as a simple system of changing rewards on a current feature.

    I don't honestly think it will happen though, since CWL medals are the path to some very desirable items...and keeping it based on progression is what SC's goal is. I don't have a problem with it, I just don't think it likely fits SC's stated goals.

  3. #43
    Forum Superstar JusMe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2222 View Post
    A player used to winning 90% in weighted regular wars notes they don’t like how CWL is not weighted. No weight with a ladder system is the reason the winning % is about 50% in CWL. What is “not nice” about me pointing out they could choose to instead do regular wars if they don’t like the 50% type winning that is found in league wars? Don’t worry, I’m not easily offended, but I am curious as to what you mean by “not nice.” CWL isn’t for everyone. Going from winning 90% to winning 50% is a huge shift and some won’t like it. Many hate losing half the time in builder base too. I had to remind my own clan mates many times we won’t be winning in league like we do in regular wars. Most have caught on now and even this season where we expect to not win (we just got promoted), we are looking at it as a challenge to just get as many stars as we can. If we get demoted that is ok.
    I'm looking at that statement not just for this one player/clan but in a broader sense. It's one of those sentences that just doesn't 'add' anything - CWL WAS meant for everyone, at least in the beginning, both according to Darian (here on the forums) AND according to support people who were answering questions (then about clan XP going missing, which we also never heard anything about anymore). Later that turned into 'it's only for the best'. That's rubbish (pardon my French). What OP states isn't 'fair' and what I agree with, is that it's ridiculous that clans with nothing over TH10 have to go up against clans with 4 or more TH12 (and not rushed/engineered bases).... simply because the other clans have been gaming the system to drop a tier so they could stomp over all of the current opponents. Who knows, they might end up losing one or two wars this time too to not get promoted again....

    The 'not nice' refers to the 'just responding and not really adding anything', even though you give an explanation, that 'just don't do it' just is meh.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2222 View Post
    I’m not sure what you mean by doing whatever you can to drop. If you are so outmatched that you are placing 6th or 7th you will drop. If you are not so outmatched and are placing 5th or better, you stay. As time goes on, if you are active and upgrade, you will have a better chance to win a higher % in that same league next season (it also helps that 3 tiers added have drawn stronger clans up). At some point, assuming your clan is active and keeps upgrading, you will even be strong enough to promote out of that tier. Then you will be the weak clan again. You will again have to fight your way up and face getting demoted. All of that is a natural part of a ladder system.
    First CWL one of our clans was in masters III, we ended up getting promoted. Then there was a spat between some members and unfortunately two high level TH12s and an 11 left. Huge problems next CWL. We ended up not being demoted because two of us just couldn't not attack or deliberately attack terribly (turned out the ones below us had done that anyway, so it wouldn't have helped).

    So now this clan is still in masters II, with mostly the same roster as that first CWL (MINUS the three high level TH!) and we haven't seen anything under mostly max TH11. People are simply getting fed up - they don't mind losing, but the simple fact is that the TH, especially at 12, and of course the eagle and inferno's for 11 and 10, make a huge difference. The tiers are simply not calculated/used correctly now, or however one wants to call it. The 'BASED ON SKILL' that Darian advertised doesn't come into play much...

    I'm not saying CWL should be abandoned or whatever. SC has put in a big effort to create this. It's just that the system is being gamed too much by clans colluding, clans deliberately throwing wars/attacks and such to stay in a 'sweet spot' for farming - and that makes it very, very frustrating for many other clans who do want to give it their best. And no, it's not about winning 90% or 100% ... it's not being able to get anywhere against opponents who are ridiculously overpowered in comparison - having TH10 going up against TH12 war after war just is demotivating, not much else.

    I totally get that a number of clans, especially the higher ones now in Champ, love this feature. They are simply 15 th12 mx against 15 th12 mx.... or nearly mx...

    Quote Originally Posted by 2222 View Post
    The major change I wish would happen is to have a medal reward system that rewards clans for pushing as high as they can.
    I've seen your remarks on that. I for one am glad that at least lower TH's get some reward for playing cwl and finding ways to get stars... - they always will be in the lower leagues, of course, with less rewards. Please don't have that taken away as well... in our clans this CWL most of those 'benched' ones won't see anything but those few bonus packages. That pushing as high as they can is nice, but it simply doesn't matter in the current system because others just crush them for fun and farming medals (which is not what cwl was meant for)
    Last edited by JusMe; January 11th, 2019 at 08:29 PM.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmoore1998 View Post
    The point of the greater rewards though is that you're fighting in an open competition, rather than one weighted to only be fighting someone similar to yourself.

    If your entire argument is "better rewards for weighted wars", then just suggest better rewards for regular/weighted wars...as opposed to a much more difficult method of trying to make a hybrid which seems full of problems.

    In the end though, i don't think you can simultaneously reward people for their low weight even if they're trying to progress without inadvertently rewarding people for keeping a war weight low intentionally. There's already a mechanism for people who want weighted wars to have weighted wars...if the argument is "let's give them some kind of medals more than the zero we give them today", I think that might be reasonable depending upon the method and number given. Medals are essentially just a currency in the game now. I just don't think creating a convoluted CWL-type system for weighted wars makes as much sense as a simple system of changing rewards on a current feature.

    I don't honestly think it will happen though, since CWL medals are the path to some very desirable items...and keeping it based on progression is what SC's goal is. I don't have a problem with it, I just don't think it likely fits SC's stated goals.
    That would be nice, but not likely to ever happen... Agreed. At least people that opted out of the CWL format wouldn't be excluded from potential rewards. It wouldn't address the frequency of Classic spins, but I'm sure people wouldn't mind if similar rewards were available.

  5.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crabby1982 View Post
    The announcement thread stays oddly quiet during maintenance. Once upon a time I'd log in see the servers were down and I'd be able to hit up that thread to see why.

    Also I disagree on the impact to clouds. SC made the choice to pour resources into the creation of new games. 5 was it you said?
    Surely some of those considerable resources could have been temporally diverted to address the cloud issues here and support the clash team?
    Most of the time threads on maintenance are still there.

    The thing is that’s not how SC operates. They work in small Cells (hey there name is Supercell... ) / teams and each team is responsible for their own game. Sure Devs sometimes switch between teams just because they want something different but that’s something you see everywhere in the world.

    Either way no resources were pulled or taken away from clash to develop these other games. So clash didn’t “suffer” on that front.
    Furthermore throwing “more bodies” at a problem doesn’t always lead to a faster solution in fact it may even slow things down by a lot.
    Just read a few articles on the subject of how adding more people to a conversation and meeting exponentially increases the duration of conferences etc. Anyway devs working on such an issue as clouds must really and truly understand the game at its very core.
    If anything so many “solutions” the forums have proposed which would break the game much more just proves that this isn’t and never was an easy fix. So calling in just a random group of game devs also doesn’t easily fix the problem.

    Ive been privileged enough to speak to clash devs face to face about clouds on several occasions through the years and they’ve had this issue on the radar all this time. And only when you speak to them face to face is it when you learn that they truly live and breathe the game. They gave us a glimpse of just how complex this issue is and that they had been discussing it but couldn’t make real progress at that point.

    Sometimes things also simply take time a lot of time. People seem to think things get developed from one update to the next and while for some things that is the case there’s other long term projects also working on the back ground. CWL certainly wasn’t done in a few months and neither was clan wars. Or the whole league, shield etc revision were huge projects and the same applies to clouds. Sometimes projects can easily last well over a year. While Darian first hinted about operation blue skies in the summer of last year we first learned about the first hints this is actively worked on even longer before that, which means they’ve been working on it even longer.. so to place a time line on this we’re now talking 2017 or so.

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  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by JusMe View Post
    I'm looking at that statement not just for this one player/clan but in a broader sense. It's one of those sentences that just doesn't 'add' anything - CWL WAS meant for everyone, at least in the beginning, both according to Darian (here on the forums) AND according to support people who were answering questions (then about clan XP going missing, which we also never heard anything about anymore). Later that turned into 'it's only for the best'. That's rubbish (pardon my French). What OP states isn't 'fair' and what I agree with, is that it's ridiculous that clans with nothing over TH10 have to go up against clans with 4 or more TH12 (and not rushed/engineered bases).... simply because the other clans have been gaming the system to drop a tier so they could stomp over all of the current opponents. Who knows, they might end up losing one or two wars this time too to not get promoted again....

    The 'not nice' refers to the 'just responding and not really adding anything', even though you give an explanation, that 'just don't do it' just is meh.



    First CWL one of our clans was in masters III, we ended up getting promoted. Then there was a spat between some members and unfortunately two high level TH12s and an 11 left. Huge problems next CWL. We ended up not being demoted because two of us just couldn't not attack or deliberately attack terribly (turned out the ones below us had done that anyway, so it wouldn't have helped).

    So now this clan is still in masters II, with mostly the same roster as that first CWL (MINUS the three high level TH!) and we haven't seen anything under mostly max TH11. People are simply getting fed up - they don't mind losing, but the simple fact is that the TH, especially at 12, and of course the eagle and inferno's for 11 and 10, make a huge difference. The tiers are simply not calculated/used correctly now, or however one wants to call it. The 'BASED ON SKILL' that Darian advertised doesn't come into play much...

    I'm not saying CWL should be abandoned or whatever. SC has put in a big effort to create this. It's just that the system is being gamed too much by clans colluding, clans deliberately throwing wars/attacks and such to stay in a 'sweet spot' for farming - and that makes it very, very frustrating for many other clans who do want to give it their best. And no, it's not about winning 90% or 100% ... it's not being able to get anywhere against opponents who are ridiculously overpowered in comparison - having TH10 going up against TH12 war after war just is demotivating, not much else.

    I totally get that a number of clans, especially the higher ones now in Champ, love this feature. They are simply 15 th12 mx against 15 th12 mx.... or nearly mx...



    I've seen your remarks on that. I for one am glad that at least lower TH's get some reward for playing cwl and finding ways to get stars... - they always will be in the lower leagues, of course, with less rewards. Please don't have that taken away as well... in our clans this CWL most of those 'benched' ones won't see anything but those few bonus packages. That pushing as high as they can is nice, but it simply doesn't matter in the current system because others just crush them for fun and farming medals (which is not what cwl was meant for)
    Pointing out clans should expect a roughly 50% win ratio, including pointing out even those clans they are “mismatched” against are going to win about 50% too, isn’t a statement that adds nothing, in my opinion. If I thought it added nothing, I wouldn’t point it out.

    Nothing about that statement runs counter to your point that CWL was meant for everyone. If anything, it supports it. CWL can be fun for all types of clans. My mixed hall clan enjoys it, even when we are getting beat up like we are this season.

    The “rubbish” argument that you said you heard about it being only for the best isn’t one I’ve heard many make other than perhaps in reference to the very top league, which I do think is designed for the best max th12 players.

    My statement of “just don’t do it” isn’t a throwaway statement and I didn’t just say just don’t to it. I did point out the person not enjoying CWL has the option to do regular wars instead. It is actual advice for those who just can’t enjoy CWL. They don’t have to. They have the choice to do regular wars instead if winning around 50% and sometimes playing against clans with greater power is not fun for them.

    Your own clan is in Masters 3, your overall record so far is probably a little under 50%? Just a guess. You may get demoted where you will be stronger. You will then win more than 50%. It all evens out in the end. That is how it will be. If you had more th12s it would be similar, just perhaps in higher leagues. I disagree with the claim that the “skill based” advertisement doesn’t come into play. It definitely does. There are constant stories of clans who were “out matched” who then won anyway due to skill. However, I do agree the initial advertisements made it seem a little too much like it was only or mostly skill based and it definitely isn’t that. Progression is rewarded. I find nothing unfair or wrong about that at all. I don’t find it unfair that a clan of th9s can’t push as high as a clan of th12s. The fact that both will be winning about 50%, just in different leagues, isn’t unfair.

    I do agree the system is being gamed too much. It was easy to predict immediately. I think the medal system should have a major overhaul to do a better job of rewarding clans for pushing as high as they can. My own clan should get more medals for taking 6th place this season in masters 1 than we would have if we had intentionally stayed in masters 2 to take 3rd place.
    Last edited by 2222; January 11th, 2019 at 09:15 PM.
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  7. #47
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    In my opinion, there are 3 main ways a clan can approach CWL. If you know of any others, and I'm sure there are, please let me know.

    1) Pushing - Clans include their best bases and do everything they can to win and get promoted.

    2) Participating - Clans set a line up relative to the TH composition of their clan. Then rotate players in so everyone that wants to participate in CWL has a chance.

    3) Farming - Clans find a league that offers them the most medals for their effort. Then they do what they need to do to maintain this league.

    For both of the clans in groups 1 and 2, they will eventually come to a balancing point where they win roughly 50% of their wars. Either winning 2-5 wars each season and maintaining their league. Or bouncing between 2 different leagues where they win 6/7 wars one season and only win 0/1 war the next.

    A farming clan has 2 "good" options in my opinion. First they can win 4/5 wars and make sure they are 3rd or 4th in the standings to maintain their league. Second is creating a second clan and fill it with alternate accounts. These 2 clans alternate between the main and alt accounts so one clan wins 7 wars and moves up while the alt clan doesn't attack at all and moves down. Next season they switch clans and repeat, maintaining the good farming league for the main accounts. Now how do these farming clans interact with the other 2 groups?

    The first group of farmers trying to maintain a league could affect the promotions and demotions if they have to tank a couple of wars to maintain their league. This could give a weaker clan a 5th/6th spot and not be demoted. This could also catapulte a clan from 3rd/4th to the top 2 and get promoted. But if your clan is trying to get promoted, then if you're better than this weaker clan you should have beat them which would cancel out the bonus they got from the gifted win. Also you should have performed better against the remaining clans in the group and should still be above them in the rankings. So while this could affect the end results, a clan missing out on promotion because of this would be able to try again next season and would likely have a difficult time in the next league anyways. Same for the demotion end. Likely any clans affected by this were on the bubble anyways and would either give that league another shot next season or get demoted to a lower league where they'd likely have a better chance at success.

    The second group of farmers have even less of an affect on pushers in my opinion. In the case of the mains winning all 7 wars then it comes down to 1 promotion spot. How many stars you earn against them and performance against the rest of the clans is unaffected by their farming. Just that only 1 clan gets promoted instead of 2. Same for the alt accounts losing all 7 wars. It gives 1 pushing clan a chance to try that league again. Now you could run into 2 of these clans, but if they're farming in the correct league then the next league up they wouldn't be able to dominate, likely being a middle tier clan in that league. So your pushing clan would likely also struggle in the next league up if you're unable to combat them efficiently. Also, these types of clans are hard to tell apart from the clans that actually had drastic roster changes from the last CWL. In my clan we added 4 accounts (1 TH 12, 2 TH 11s and 1 TH 10) and 1 TH 11 upgraded to TH 12 from season 2 to season 3. So they could have went through a similar thing and are now trying to move up as well.

    CWL farming seems to be similar to farming in multi-player to me. There are always bases that want to intentially lose trophies to maintain a certain trophy range. Sometimes those trophies are dropped on bases that don't want them, and they turn around and drop them on someone else. Sometimes the trophies are dropped on a base pushing and they are greatly appretiated. A lot of farmers in multi-player have a higher than average base for their league. So they are able to dominate that trophy range, but have to drop from time to time to maintain it. The only difference being that in multi-player there is a next button, so if you are given a chance to attack them you can pass. But you can't prevent them from passing on you. In CWL, you still can't prevent them from attacking you, but you also can't skip attacking them (well you can but then you score 0 stars and just hurt your chances of promotion).

    With all that said, I would like to add that I do believe the medal rewards need to be reworked. A higher league should produce more medals than the league directly below it. Whether that's from stars, wins, or bonus packs it should be more beneficial pushing higher. That would help resolve some of the issues with clans farming in lower leagues.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by 2222 View Post
    Base strength and attacking skills both matter. Both will impact how high the clan can climb. It definitely isn’t for everyone. As I noted above, almost all clans will be winning only about 50%. If they can’t get their mind around that to realize the focus isn’t on wins/losses but instead just on pushing up over time (or just on earning medals as some focus on), they won’t like it and may choose to do regular wars instead.
    Attacking skills matter some but far less than base strength. Take some of the best attackers in the game with max10/11 and put them up against a bunch of mediocre players with max 12s and the far better group of players loses and loses badly. This is the first time that I can recall in COC where they have made zero effort to even the playing field and that is a little confusing. Losing 50% of the time would be fine for most people if they were losing because other clans are better but losing because the matchup made it so you had no chance isn't fun for the majority of the players. I forsee this going the way of builder base where a few people love it and most of the CoC community doesn't want any part of it.

  9. #49
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    I agree with the op. My clan is level 8 and did have a lot of low level guys in it and 2 maxed accounts. Now im down to 30 members after being full. People are losing moral big time! We have been outmatch since the start. I just kicked 3 guys (friends) because they got abusive and started blaming everyone else for their own attacks. My clan is on the verge guys all because of cwl. Before giving blame out guys remember i had a full happy clan before these cwl’s started.

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    Hey crabby, I completely get you.

    Since CWL we started a feeder clan so lower level players could compete in CWL - it hasn’t really worked. The amount of players allowed to compete in CWL is a flaw. The match making system is a flaw.

    Example - let’s say I have 30 accounts at my disposal and 2 clans. 15 of these accounts are th11s and 12s (The A team) the other 15 are 8s and 9s (The B team). One month the A team compete in one clan and win while the B team compete and lose. The following month the A team competes in the clan that was relegated and of course wins while the b team ensures that the clan that was promoted last month gets relegated. This would just go on ensuring that the top players always win.

    Now you might say, lower players won’t be willing to lose every month and you’re right. But let’s be honest, it is so easy to create a new account and most higher players have at least a couple of minis. I have a player at th11 stockpiling medals. When he goes to 12 he will have over 20 instant upgrades at his disposal!

    the clouds - I did one month in legends to get the badge, I won’t go back until you can actually play the game up there. Tell me another game that people are willing to watch a spinning wheel for 30 mins before they get a go? It’s ludicrous that wasn’t fixed years ago. And I don’t care how complex it is, how many million are supercell worth? Work it out.

    Bat spell - this has pushed me to considering a break also. I echo everything you said.

    I hope they work it out, clash is a great game.
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