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  Click here to go to the first staff post in this thread.   Thread: There Is No Matchmaking In CWL!

  1. #1681
    Forum Veteran Thegreatpuma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chriizzz View Post
    Look at the post of „https://forum.supercell.com/member.p...3-Thegreatpuma“... Youre Talking about skill, but Maybe you dont know the Definition of skill. There is no skill for a Th11 To make 3* at a th8. There is no skill for th8 to make 3* at th7. Skill is when Th11 is vs Th11, th10 vs 10... Skill is when every Clan Are on the same Level and Then the Better Clan win...
    Um, yes, I have seen many, MANY th8 fail to 3* th7. In fact I've also seen TH11 fail on Th8. Skill is needed. You can't choose any random army with any placement and beat any base.

    The only problem here is your failure to understand what CWL is. CWL is a ladder system where you move up or down in tiers based on your performance. Performance takes into account BOTH skill and strength. This is my point when I say if your clan is overmatched you will tend to be above average attackers. If you are undermatched you will tend to be below average attackers. The only exception is on initial placement in a league tier or a dramatic change in clan lineup strength or (YES!) skill.

    Remember though that in a ladder system non-maxed good attackers will reach a point where the strength of their opponent will outweigh their skill. This is the part the encourages base advancement for non-maxed players, and is the whole point behind CWL.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chriizzz View Post
    In my opinion we Need a Matchmaking Update so fast as supercell can. This is more important than a new troup, a new Event Or builder base 9... The Matchmaking is a joke. In this Clan war League our small Clan mates didnt have any Chance to make 3* Attacks. But this isnt only in the League, ohh no. In the normal cw Too. So supercell, please make the cw fair... This System is no funny its awful ...
    If you are having trouble with classic war matchmaking then I would point you to this thread: https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...AQ-Matchmaking it will help you understand what is going on.
    Last edited by Thegreatpuma; June 6th, 2019 at 02:40 PM.
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  2. #1682
    Forum Veteran MajorJohnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2222 View Post
    I don’t think initial placement needs “matchmaking” but I do think the initial placement metrics need to be adjusted now and then. What was the average top 15 6 months ago in a certain league may no longer be the case.
    Initial placement 'matchmaking' is based entirely on defense weight only (offense is 0 factor). We can also conclude that placement weight is static based on many of the reports of first time CWL clans.

    We are trained to dismiss them because "there is no matchmaking in CWL" and most are also hard to comprehend.

    But this will be a problem going forward and will get more extreme over time, there comes a point where it is nearly impossible for some players to get stars. Noobs are a fickle bunch and may potentially quit if they are going in CWL for the first time, get destroyed, walk away with nothing, and require 6 months to get to the league they should be in (currently sitting at 4 months).

    I have an idea though!

    Just collect an ongoing average weight of the top 15 of each tier once CWL opens for initial seeding clans. Iinital placement cannot start until a large enough sample has been taken (first 4 hours would probably be enough)
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  3. #1683
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorJohnson View Post
    Initial placement 'matchmaking' is based entirely on defense weight only (offense is 0 factor). We can also conclude that placement weight is static based on many of the reports of first time CWL clans.

    We are trained to dismiss them because "there is no matchmaking in CWL" and most are also hard to comprehend.

    But this will be a problem going forward and will get more extreme over time, there comes a point where it is nearly impossible for some players to get stars. Noobs are a fickle bunch and may potentially quit if they are going in CWL for the first time, get destroyed, walk away with nothing, and require 6 months to get to the league they should be in (currently sitting at 4 months).

    I have an idea though!

    Just collect an ongoing average weight of the top 15 of each tier once CWL opens for initial seeding clans. Iinital placement cannot start until a large enough sample has been taken (first 4 hours would probably be enough)
    Or just use the average weights from the prior CWL to determine initial placement. That's a decent idea you have.
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  4. #1684
    Forum Veteran MajorJohnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klavious View Post
    Or just use the average weights from the prior CWL to determine initial placement. That's a decent idea you have.
    You could do that too but you would have to account for growth since previous CWL otherwise you are always going to be the weakest clan.

    CWL has diminishing returns over time, the rewards stay the same but every CWL gets a bit harder. 250 medals this CWL will eventually be 150 medals 6 months from now

    Gold 1 now has around the same weight as Crystal 1/Masters 3 did in first CWL.
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  5. #1685
    Forum Veteran Thegreatpuma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorJohnson View Post
    I have an idea though!

    Just collect an ongoing average weight of the top 15 of each tier once CWL opens for initial seeding clans. Iinital placement cannot start until a large enough sample has been taken (first 4 hours would probably be enough)

    Agree and I have stated as much on several posts since I started noticing this issue. The fact that they have not done this is really strange.
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  6.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #1686
    Quote Originally Posted by MajorJohnson View Post
    Initial placement 'matchmaking' is based entirely on defense weight only (offense is 0 factor).
    Where do you get that from?

    As far as I am aware, it uses the same weighting as is used in classic war matching, which does include offense.



    We can also conclude that placement weight is static based on many of the reports of first time CWL clans.
    I think that is right, and agree it could do with some adjustment to take account of average weights in each tier now.
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  7. #1687
    Forum Veteran MajorJohnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajax View Post
    Where do you get that from?
    Testing and observation, our clan is very big and I try to get everyone in so at times we have needed up to 4 CWL clans.

    As far as I am aware, it uses the same weighting as is used in classic war matching, which does include offense.
    CWL does not include offense weight into consideration, I fought some low tier wars with 1 cannon wonders and would not see a top bigger than a TH10 with us only having 1 TH10 defense at the top. This was early day CWL though and it would make sense to only work off of defense weight since you only have 1 attack so you are only trading 3 stars to gain 3 stars higher, mild advantage in low leagues.

    I also tested 2 clans initial seeding with the same defense weight on both sides but one side had heavy engineered on the bottom and both matched in the same league.

    I think that is right, and agree it could do with some adjustment to take account of average weights in each tier now.
    If matchmaking for initial seeding was like regular war, it would be more computationally expensive, and it could not be static. I see the devs just hardcoded weights for defense because it is easy and then you are only finding that league, and randomly matching clans, rather than looking at matchmaking clan against clan.

    "There is no matchmaking in CWL"
    Last edited by MajorJohnson; June 6th, 2019 at 08:16 PM.
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  8. #1688
    Forum Veteran MajorJohnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thegreatpuma View Post
    Agree and I have stated as much on several posts since I started noticing this issue. The fact that they have not done this is really strange.
    If this is in fact the case, Supercell would be forced to make some kind of change in the next 2-3 months.
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  9. #1689
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix1027 View Post
    There is no advantage in CWL if you rush, because you get one attack and it means that your base will get crushed by the opposing team whereas you might get a star or 2. The CWL system is not going to change to your desired wishes. It's as simple as that.
    Well, the advantage is that you gain more stars from other bases when rushing, so your break even point is in a higher league (or higher placement within your current league), so you get slightly more medals.

    I am getting the urge (though the new hero levels might slow me down) to make 15 hyperrush accounts, each maxing a different troop, and do solo cwl with them, just to see how far I can get.


    Quote Originally Posted by Piper139 View Post
    Skill is when the outmatched clan can win.
    Very well put.


    Quote Originally Posted by MajorJohnson View Post
    CWL does not include offense weight into consideration, I fought some low tier wars with 1 cannon wonders and would not see a top bigger than a TH10 with us only having 1 TH10 defense at the top. This was early day CWL though and it would make sense to only work off of defense weight since you only have 1 attack so you are only trading 3 stars to gain 3 stars higher, mild advantage in low leagues.

    I also tested 2 clans initial seeding with the same defense weight on both sides but one side had heavy engineered on the bottom and both matched in the same league.

    If matchmaking for initial seeding was like regular war, it would be more computationally expensive, and it could not be static. I see the devs just hardcoded weights for defense because it is easy and then you are only finding that league, and randomly matching clans, rather than looking at matchmaking clan against clan.

    "There is no matchmaking in CWL"
    I think the CWL initial placement matchmaking is more like the old naive clan war matchmaker in that it totals the weights and then puts you into the league that corresponds to that total, and not like the current clan war matchmaker that looks at ratios and whatnot (there is obviously no separate league structure for clans with different offense to defense ratios).

    The tiers are so wide that I'm not sure it's practical to experimentally determine if offense is included or not. The kind of test you would need is an all-defenseless clan where the defenseless accounts have tall and wide offense but very very low defense (no traps or teslas). If it's defense only then you'd be in bronze 3, if you place higher than it takes offense into account. Using a TH10 anchor or other bases than defenseless clouds the situation.

    I agree that it would have been simple for them to just use the "gold offered" since it's already coded and the initial placement doesn't matter a lot.

  10. #1690
    Forum Veteran MajorJohnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by littledoctor View Post
    Well, the advantage is that you gain more stars from other bases when rushing, so your break even point is in a higher league (or higher placement within your current league), so you get slightly more medals.

    I am getting the urge (though the new hero levels might slow me down) to make 15 hyperrush accounts, each maxing a different troop, and do solo cwl with them, just to see how far I can get.




    Very well put.




    I think the CWL initial placement matchmaking is more like the old naive clan war matchmaker in that it totals the weights and then puts you into the league that corresponds to that total, and not like the current clan war matchmaker that looks at ratios and whatnot (there is obviously no separate league structure for clans with different offense to defense ratios).

    The tiers are so wide that I'm not sure it's practical to experimentally determine if offense is included or not. The kind of test you would need is an all-defenseless clan where the defenseless accounts have tall and wide offense but very very low defense (no traps or teslas). If it's defense only then you'd be in bronze 3, if you place higher than it takes offense into account. Using a TH10 anchor or other bases than defenseless clouds the situation.

    I agree that it would have been simple for them to just use the "gold offered" since it's already coded and the initial placement doesn't matter a lot.
    I have many tall and wide with very low defense, the one in particular I mentioned had around 6 or 7 TH11 with very low defense, and a TH10 on top. I would get harder matches when using balanced bases that weigh a bit more, if it were normal matching and taking that offense into account I would be outmatched at the top or not able to find a match. I did around 5-6 initial seedings to test if offense were being taken into account and I can say with high certainty that the matching for initial seeding is only based on defense weight.

    It is OK to do matching based only on defense weight with one attack in CWL's current form, it's less work and engi's like that are in limited supply so if they are in war, it's either to help the clan with a small advantage in a low league, or to grow.

    The problem I noticed this CWL is that many new CWL clans are being seeded really high, about 4 tiers too high. Their line-ups and league they were placed in look very similar to early seedings I did which makes me think that the weight entrance to leagues are the same as the first CWL.

    This doesn't affect me, I've got clans in just about every league from Silver 2 to Crystal 1 so I can choose where our bases go. It would be a greater effect for new clans because it would be better to offer the prospect to win than 4-6 months of being decimated in CWL. One of the best CWL's I fought was the very first one and with teamwork, we won most of the wars and came first.

    I haven't done an initial seeding in some months but I suspect if I did now, even the mild advantage of including a bunch of low defense, high offense accounts would not be enough. If someone is keen enough to set up a test next CWL, I could include 3 defenseless TH11's if they don't mind that I will probably not attack on them.
    Last edited by MajorJohnson; June 7th, 2019 at 05:02 PM.
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