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  Click here to go to the first staff post in this thread.   Thread: CWL league matchups are just awful, Supercell way off base

  1. #451
    Quote Originally Posted by Noctaire View Post
    I think the biggest hurdle would be the seeding and placement more than anything else. Each team would have a different composition - in all likelihood, you’d have one for TH11/TH12 players and the other for TH9 and under (TH10 would fit in either or) for most cases. So...it would have to allow for 2 separate rankings/placement plus a whole separate set of rewards, stats, having to segregate the two teams functionally within the CWL but not the clan.... I think it’s absolutely the best answer to this inclusion problem but I would not want to be the guy who actually develops it.
    Yes, that is how we would do it in our clan. We would have one roster of higher halls for the "A" team and one roster of lower halls for the "B" team. Team A rewards would go to the players on their roster and team B rewards to the players on that roster. Unfortunately, it messes with things like the clan's war league log, which tier the clan is shown as being placed in, etc., but it sure would be nice so our lower players can play without having to make another clan for them.
    Contact SC here. Click here to see how trophies are calculated. I'm still thinking starting the "new" legends at Legends2 at 5500 and having Legends3 be for 5000-5499 would be good (with season resets to 5000 and 5500 depending on your trophies at season end) but overall I LOVE the Legends change. Thanks SC.

  2. #452
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    I honestly believe that the system is correct but the placement will take time. It's perfectly reasonable in my opinion that the top leagues would be filled with nothing but 12's.

    It's a power play, just like pushing is. (Or should be)

    The real issue in my opinion is the initial placement. My former clan decided to involve everyone. Perfectly in the spirit of that clan but we got absolutely destroyed after the first win when people in the highest leauge (Masters 1) realized that a mixed clan was pointless. We simply didn't possess the firepower available.

    Thankfully, we were demoted to Master 2 and the matching was a little better.

    But..... We also lost people to FEPA and other groups. People whose weight they are stuck with forever. (Thanks FEPA btw, split up some more clans)

    So now was Masters 2. Looked okay even though we lacked the power we had in Masters 1. Maybe Masters 3 is best for us right?

    Nope. Couldn't even drop naturally because of others tossing wars.

    You know what would help? Allowing clans to run regular wars and cwl at the same time. Big dogs in cwl, everyone else in regular. Or not make people wait 20 stinking days to try to find the right spot.

  3. #453
    Forum Contender Piper139's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noctaire View Post
    I think the biggest hurdle would be the seeding and placement more than anything else. Each team would have a different composition - in all likelihood, you’d have one for TH11/TH12 players and the other for TH9 and under (TH10 would fit in either or) for most cases. So...it would have to allow for 2 separate rankings/placement plus a whole separate set of rewards, stats, having to segregate the two teams functionally within the CWL but not the clan.... I think it’s absolutely the best answer to this inclusion problem but I would not want to be the guy who actually develops it.
    And what you are both ignoring is that there are people who support wars that don't attack in leagues. I'm in a 43 member clan. Mix of farmers and warriors. The farmers, in leagues only obviously, help fill defense ccs. They supply attack cc troops and machines. They are they logistics arm of our clan army. By dropping the so called participation medals, they get nothing for being valued, helpful clan members. To be honest, the more I read back through, the various solutions (including mine) seem to benefit the particular point of view of the poster's clan. In the long run, I doubt any of the suggestions will make a hill of beans worth of difference. Sandbaggers will stay low to have easy wars. Pushers will push. The rest of us will muddle through. And ten years from now, the debate over what participation trophies and warring for loot actually means will still be going on.

  4. #454
    Forum Hero Noctaire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keflex View Post
    SC advertised CWL as "everyone will get the medals regardless of they are in the war or not". That is up to SC to decide and I don't care what you think about it, only what SC thinks about it. Debate it all you want, that is how SC designed it and completely irrelevant to my topic at hand



    Actually, it is absolutely central to the topic at hand. Everyone getting the participation medals will have a significant impact on the business side for all the reasons I mentioned before. This would drive the numbers - how many medals each tier can be given in this alternative system. This is why I think these numbers are way too high and why numbers acceptable to the business side of the game would be too low to make it worthwhile for the playerbase. SC has said everyone gets the medals whether they battle or not (they must be on the CWL roster) but they also placed definitive limitations on the potential rewards non-participants can get and tied them strictly to wins. That’s very telling. Any alternative system MUST take this into account to receive serious consideration. (And I am assuming SC will read and consider the many suggestions in this thread.)


    Quote Originally Posted by Keflex View Post
    Regards to medals, my clan topped our first league in M1, we won 6/7 and I got 16 stars.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keflex View Post
    Total medals = 25*6 + 16*10 = 310 medals (90 bonus not counted)


    2nd season, we got 3rd in Ch3, we won 5/7 and I got 15 stars
    Total medals = 27*5 + 15*12 = 315 medals (95 bonus not counted)


    You can actually see, most clans in M1 would've gotten around the same medal as us, but at Ch3 they are earning less. 5/8 of the clans are earning less compared to being at M1



    You won less battles and less stars, and your rewards were more than in the lower league but not very much higher. That sounds like what it should be. Using this example, a player in M1 would not be able to compare in earnings with those above. It;s a relatively small difference, but to achieve that, you would almost certainly have to be promoted at the end of the season so this is good for both rewards and incentive to push. One could also argue that your clan still has not yet found your tier of best fit and it certainly was not M1. Did you get boosted to Ch2 after S2 or stay in Ch3?


    Quote Originally Posted by Keflex View Post
    The star bonus would be reduced then, maybe only 1-4 medals per star so that it would almost never be profitable to stay low because the star bonus would make little difference. More numbers coming below
    Quote Originally Posted by Keflex View Post


    Masters 1 (3 medals per star)
    #8 - 216
    #7 - 222
    #6 - 228
    #5 - 234
    #4 - 240
    #3 - 247
    #2 - 254
    #1 - 260


    Champs 3 - 4 medals per star
    #8 - 247
    #7 - 254
    #6 - 260
    #5 - 266
    #4 - 273
    #3 - 280
    #2 - 287
    #1 - 295


    Champs 2 (4 medals per star)
    #8 - 280
    #7 - 287
    #6 - 295
    #5 - 302
    #4 - 310
    #3 - 318
    #2 - 326
    #1 - 335


    Because of the huge amount of overlap (#6-8) and (#1-3), the amount of medals you win will never go astronomically high. And because of the low star medals, going up a league and getting less stars is not really an issue



    So...you want to not only remove win medals but also reduce star medals and move those into the tier rewards instead, with a slight increase it appears.


    Quote Originally Posted by Keflex View Post
    As you keep promoting, the current system favors you dropping a tier (managing wins and stars by your terms) and maintaining there rather than being as high as you can be. If SC wants people to be competitive and be as high as they can be, a system like this would reward and encourage this.



    Not exactly and this is where a couple of folks in this thread do not understand what I am saying. (BTW - “managing wins” is not one of my terms.)


    I refer to the “tier of best fit” - the sweet spot where you are competitive and earn a decent number of medals. Using your example above, you were in M1 and earned a decent number of medals but easily reached into Ch3 where you won a little bit more rewards although you did not win as many wars or stars. As such, I would argue your clan was NOT in its tier of best fit at M1 yet and should have been promoted to Ch3. Now...Ch3 May be your tier of best fit, but I have no doubt you could go at least one tier higher, based upon your results. When you go up a tier and get crucified, you’ve left your tier of best fit behind. Ch2 may be that for you...or you may win 4/7 wars, 14-17 stars, and be right where you should be, making that your tier of best fit.


    This is the crux of my advice to clans that are complaining. It isn’t “drop tiers to bully weaker clans” but rather to find your tier of best fit then consciously maintain it until the system is mature enough to maintain it for you.


    Quote Originally Posted by Keflex View Post
    New system for my clan:
    #1 in Masters 1 with 16 stars = 260 + (16*3) = 308 medals
    #3 in champs 3 with 15 stars = 280 + (15*4) = 340 medals (huge incentive to reach champs because of the +1 star bonus)
    If champs 3 had 3 medals for star bonus, then it would be: 280 + (15*3) = 325
    Not much difference compared to what I'm getting now
    The difference here would be the #4-6 getting more medals than they did now and more medals than if they had stayed in M1
    Then #7-8 would be getting similar or slightly less than being in M1, unlike the current system where they are getting around half the medals compared to being in M1



    These numbers (on the surface) appear to support incentivizing clans to move higher regardless of the big slam at the topmost level of one’s skills/capabilities.


    Question - Do you agree that there is a tier you can reach where you will be so outmatched that you lose most of the individual wars and get a significantly lower number of stars? As I see it, this would be the point that is the furthest reach for a clan - and the goal of an all-in, push as high as you can, strategy.


    If you agree, then a follow-up question - what do you do to ease the morale hit associated with performing poorly? Reaching your highest point will inevitably mean losing but it does not mean dropping tiers, so you would likely be setting up for a repeat the following season. Most people do not like to lose and we’ve seen several complaints in the forums about just that - separate from not getting as many rewards. Is it your position that the tier rewards you propose would be an adequate offset to the morale hit due to lost wars?
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  5. #455
    Quote Originally Posted by Piper139 View Post
    And what you are both ignoring is that there are people who support wars that don't attack in leagues. I'm in a 43 member clan. Mix of farmers and warriors. The farmers, in leagues only obviously, help fill defense ccs. They supply attack cc troops and machines. They are they logistics arm of our clan army. By dropping the so called participation medals, they get nothing for being valued, helpful clan members. To be honest, the more I read back through, the various solutions (including mine) seem to benefit the particular point of view of the poster's clan. In the long run, I doubt any of the suggestions will make a hill of beans worth of difference. Sandbaggers will stay low to have easy wars. Pushers will push. The rest of us will muddle through. And ten years from now, the debate over what participation trophies and warring for loot actually means will still be going on.
    That is why I think it is fine for players not in the wars to still get medals. I just don't think they should get more for the clan doing worse than it could if it tried its hardest.
    Contact SC here. Click here to see how trophies are calculated. I'm still thinking starting the "new" legends at Legends2 at 5500 and having Legends3 be for 5000-5499 would be good (with season resets to 5000 and 5500 depending on your trophies at season end) but overall I LOVE the Legends change. Thanks SC.

  6. #456
    Forum Hero Noctaire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nuitari View Post
    I honestly believe that the system is correct but the placement will take time. It's perfectly reasonable in my opinion that the top leagues would be filled with nothing but 12's.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nuitari View Post


    It's a power play, just like pushing is. (Or should be)


    The real issue in my opinion is the initial placement. My former clan decided to involve everyone. Perfectly in the spirit of that clan but we got absolutely destroyed after the first win when people in the highest leauge (Masters 1) realized that a mixed clan was pointless. We simply didn't possess the firepower available.


    Thankfully, we were demoted to Master 2 and the matching was a little better.


    But..... We also lost people to FEPA and other groups. People whose weight they are stuck with forever. (Thanks FEPA btw, split up some more clans)


    So now was Masters 2. Looked okay even though we lacked the power we had in Masters 1. Maybe Masters 3 is best for us right?


    Nope. Couldn't even drop naturally because of others tossing wars.


    You know what would help? Allowing clans to run regular wars and cwl at the same time. Big dogs in cwl, everyone else in regular. Or not make people wait 20 stinking days to try to find the right spot.



    Well...what we are discussing is really twofold. The issue of maximizing rewards, tier of best fit, pushing...that will likely be resolved in 6-9 months when things settle into place in the CWLs. Right now, though, things are messy for a lot of folks - some are flat stuck on the higher tier they were seeded into, realizing an awful experience, and cannot get out because they are not managing their stars. If they are willing to take the hit a while, it should work itself out eventually.


    Then there’s the issue of how to handle players who are not active participants in CWL within their clan due to being too low or simply not being utilized. That’s the whole participation trophy debate and, setting aside the stigma of the term itself, finding a way to reward these players who are supporting their clan - maybe even donating troops - but not eligible/a good fit for battling in the war.


    Allowing clans to run regular wars during CWL is certainly one solution. Big dogs in CWL, everyone else in classic CW - no disagreement. Would there be enough clans that could field a team to both simultaneously though? Since classic CWs are matched on war weight, would the matches become even less fair? Are many players who would be omitted from actually battling in CWL going to be willing to forego the potential participation rewards (under either system) to get medals which everyone needs to be able to purchase items in the CWL shop?


    Not having any actual numbers - just basing my opinion on what I’ve seen, the reports from those who have tried to run classic CWs during CWL, and what SC has said...I don’t think there would be enough critical mass to make that work. If so, I think it would be a great idea.


    Quote Originally Posted by Piper139 View Post
    And what you are both ignoring is that there are people who support wars that don't attack in leagues. I'm in a 43 member clan. Mix of farmers and warriors. The farmers, in leagues only obviously, help fill defense ccs. They supply attack cc troops and machines. They are they logistics arm of our clan army. By dropping the so called participation medals, they get nothing for being valued, helpful clan members. To be honest, the more I read back through, the various solutions (including mine) seem to benefit the particular point of view of the poster's clan. In the long run, I doubt any of the suggestions will make a hill of beans worth of difference. Sandbaggers will stay low to have easy wars. Pushers will push. The rest of us will muddle through. And ten years from now, the debate over what participation trophies and warring for loot actually means will still be going on.



    These players are often valued members of the clan community and they deserve to be rewarded for their loyalty and contributions. I do not believe their reward should be as much - or nearly as much - as those who participate in the actual wars, however. I like the idea of clan achievements that award medals, though. I also think there could be some individual achievements that are only active during CWL. Some examples:


    As a clan, achieve X number of stars during the CWL season - 25 medals (Awarded to the entire CWL roster at the end of each season.)


    As a clan, achieve X percentage of destruction during the CWL season - 25 medals (Awarded to the entire CWL roster at the end of each season.)


    As a clan, execute all 15 attacks in every war during the CWL season - 10 medals (Awarded to the entire CWL roster at the end of each season.)


    Individual - Donate X number of troops to active, CWL combatants during the CWL season - 10 medals (Awarded to each player at the end of each season.)


    Individual - Donate X number of spells to active, CWL combatants during the CWL season - 10 medals (Awarded to each player at the end of each season.)


    Individual - Donate X number of troops to the war CCs of active, CWL combatants during the CWL season - 10 medals (Awarded to each player at the end of each season.)


    Individual - Donate X number of spells to the war CCs of active, CWL combatants during the CWL season - 10 medals (Awarded to each player at the end of each season.)


    Individual - Execute all attacks during the CWL season - 10 medals (Awarded to each player at the end of the season.)


    I’m sure there could be others, but you get the gist. These reward contribution and incentivize desirable behaviors.
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  7. #457
    Forum Contender Piper139's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noctaire View Post
    [FONT="][FONT="][/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT="][FONT="][/FONT]
    [/FONT]

    [FONT="][FONT="]Well...what we are discussing is really twofold. The issue of maximizing rewards, tier of best fit, pushing...that will likely be resolved in 6-9 months when things settle into place in the CWLs. Right now, though, things are messy for a lot of folks - some are flat stuck on the higher tier they were seeded into, realizing an awful experience, and cannot get out because they are not managing their stars. If they are willing to take the hit a while, it should work itself out eventually.[/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT="][FONT="][/FONT]
    [/FONT]

    [FONT="][FONT="]Then there’s the issue of how to handle players who are not active participants in CWL within their clan due to being too low or simply not being utilized. That’s the whole participation trophy debate and, setting aside the stigma of the term itself, finding a way to reward these players who are supporting their clan - maybe even donating troops - but not eligible/a good fit for battling in the war.[/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT="][FONT="][/FONT]
    [/FONT]

    [FONT="][FONT="]Allowing clans to run regular wars during CWL is certainly one solution. Big dogs in CWL, everyone else in classic CW - no disagreement. Would there be enough clans that could field a team to both simultaneously though? Since classic CWs are matched on war weight, would the matches become even less fair? Are many players who would be omitted from actually battling in CWL going to be willing to forego the potential participation rewards (under either system) to get medals which everyone needs to be able to purchase items in the CWL shop?[/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT="][FONT="][/FONT]
    [/FONT]

    [FONT="][FONT="]Not having any actual numbers - just basing my opinion on what I’ve seen, the reports from those who have tried to run classic CWs during CWL, and what SC has said...I don’t think there would be enough critical mass to make that work. If so, I think it would be a great idea.[/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT="][FONT="][/FONT]
    [/FONT]

    [FONT="][FONT="][/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT="][FONT="][/FONT]
    [/FONT]

    [FONT="][FONT="]These players are often valued members of the clan community and they deserve to be rewarded for their loyalty and contributions. I do not believe their reward should be as much - or nearly as much - as those who participate in the actual wars, however. I like the idea of clan achievements that award medals, though. I also think there could be some individual achievements that are only active during CWL. Some examples:[/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT="][FONT="][/FONT]
    [/FONT]

    [FONT="][FONT="]As a clan, achieve X number of stars during the CWL season - 25 medals (Awarded to the entire CWL roster at the end of each season.)[/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT="][FONT="][/FONT]
    [/FONT]

    [FONT="][FONT="]As a clan, achieve X percentage of destruction during the CWL season - 25 medals (Awarded to the entire CWL roster at the end of each season.)[/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT="][FONT="][/FONT]
    [/FONT]

    [FONT="][FONT="]As a clan, execute all 15 attacks in every war during the CWL season - 10 medals (Awarded to the entire CWL roster at the end of each season.)[/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT="][FONT="][/FONT]
    [/FONT]

    [FONT="][FONT="]Individual - Donate X number of troops to active, CWL combatants during the CWL season - 10 medals (Awarded to each player at the end of each season.)[/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT="][FONT="][/FONT]
    [/FONT]

    [FONT="][FONT="]Individual - Donate X number of spells to active, CWL combatants during the CWL season - 10 medals (Awarded to each player at the end of each season.)[/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT="][FONT="][/FONT]
    [/FONT]

    [FONT="][FONT="]Individual - Donate X number of troops to the war CCs of active, CWL combatants during the CWL season - 10 medals (Awarded to each player at the end of each season.)[/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT="][FONT="][/FONT]
    [/FONT]

    [FONT="][FONT="]Individual - Donate X number of spells to the war CCs of active, CWL combatants during the CWL season - 10 medals (Awarded to each player at the end of each season.)[/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT="][FONT="][/FONT]
    [/FONT]

    [FONT="][FONT="]Individual - Execute all attacks during the CWL season - 10 medals (Awarded to each player at the end of the season.)[/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT="][FONT="][/FONT]
    [/FONT]

    [FONT="]I’m sure there could be others, but you get the gist. These reward contribution and incentivize desirable behaviors.[/FONT]
    This is could support. Although to be honest, I could do the similar by only including the people who contribute in some way on the roster. First league was weight focused. Second I included everyone. Third... I'm thinking some people who are slacking won't be on the list. So I can help those who help. Your idea means I don't have to try to figure it out.

  8. #458
    Forum Hero Noctaire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piper139 View Post
    This is could support. Although to be honest, I could do the similar by only including the people who contribute in some way on the roster. First league was weight focused. Second I included everyone. Third... I'm thinking some people who are slacking won't be on the list. So I can help those who help. Your idea means I don't have to try to figure it out.
    Well...that and it places responsibility for outcome directly into the hands of the player. If he or she does not get a decent number of trophies, it isn’t on you, it isn’t on SC...it’s on the player.
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  9. #459
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noctaire View Post


    Well...what we are discussing is really twofold. The issue of maximizing rewards, tier of best fit, pushing...that will likely be resolved in 6-9 months when things settle into place in the CWLs. Right now, though, things are messy for a lot of folks - some are flat stuck on the higher tier they were seeded into, realizing an awful experience, and cannot get out because they are not managing their stars. If they are willing to take the hit a while, it should work itself out eventually.


    Then there’s the issue of how to handle players who are not active participants in CWL within their clan due to being too low or simply not being utilized. That’s the whole participation trophy debate and, setting aside the stigma of the term itself, finding a way to reward these players who are supporting their clan - maybe even donating troops - but not eligible/a good fit for battling in the war.


    Allowing clans to run regular wars during CWL is certainly one solution. Big dogs in CWL, everyone else in classic CW - no disagreement. Would there be enough clans that could field a team to both simultaneously though? Since classic CWs are matched on war weight, would the matches become even less fair? Are many players who would be omitted from actually battling in CWL going to be willing to forego the potential participation rewards (under either system) to get medals which everyone needs to be able to purchase items in the CWL shop?


    Not having any actual numbers - just basing my opinion on what I’ve seen, the reports from those who have tried to run classic CWs during CWL, and what SC has said...I don’t think there would be enough critical mass to make that work. If so, I think it would be a great idea.





    These players are often valued members of the clan community and they deserve to be rewarded for their loyalty and contributions. I do not believe their reward should be as much - or nearly as much - as those who participate in the actual wars, however. I like the idea of clan achievements that award medals, though. I also think there could be some individual achievements that are only active during CWL. Some examples:


    As a clan, achieve X number of stars during the CWL season - 25 medals (Awarded to the entire CWL roster at the end of each season.)


    As a clan, achieve X percentage of destruction during the CWL season - 25 medals (Awarded to the entire CWL roster at the end of each season.)


    As a clan, execute all 15 attacks in every war during the CWL season - 10 medals (Awarded to the entire CWL roster at the end of each season.)


    Individual - Donate X number of troops to active, CWL combatants during the CWL season - 10 medals (Awarded to each player at the end of each season.)


    Individual - Donate X number of spells to active, CWL combatants during the CWL season - 10 medals (Awarded to each player at the end of each season.)


    Individual - Donate X number of troops to the war CCs of active, CWL combatants during the CWL season - 10 medals (Awarded to each player at the end of each season.)


    Individual - Donate X number of spells to the war CCs of active, CWL combatants during the CWL season - 10 medals (Awarded to each player at the end of each season.)


    Individual - Execute all attacks during the CWL season - 10 medals (Awarded to each player at the end of the season.)


    I’m sure there could be others, but you get the gist. These reward contribution and incentivize desirable behaviors.
    As usual, you think things through. I applaud that.

    My basic stance on what I was attempting to say was that the system is workable but pretty nasty in the beginning.

    Nothing will ever be perfect. To believe so is folly and completely unreasonable. However, since the build up to cwl was so terribly communicated ( In my opinion) even here, amongst players who care...

    I mean seriously, unless you were on the cutting edge of understanding, with all of the nonsense claimed, you had no flipping idea what to do! Even Darian, our trusted human resource, a person who we are supposed to take at face value claims that sandbagging (starting low in cwl on purpose) doesn't have benefit?!!!

    Is he serious about that?! Start low, win a few to keep morale up, find your level while still getting rewards for everyone.

    Or.... Start in a leauge where you don't stand a chance. Lose constantly, hopefully dropping to find the right spot and waiting months to do so!

    As far as rewards go. You and I have been in the same clan before. Pretty sure you understand that I wish everyone gets rewards since I love seeing people progress faster than I ever could.

    Anyway. It's a solid conversation.

  10. #460
    Quote Originally Posted by Nuitari View Post
    As usual, you think things through. I applaud that.

    My basic stance on what I was attempting to say was that the system is workable but pretty nasty in the beginning.

    Nothing will ever be perfect. To believe so is folly and completely unreasonable. However, since the build up to cwl was so terribly communicated ( In my opinion) even here, amongst players who care...

    I mean seriously, unless you were on the cutting edge of understanding, with all of the nonsense claimed, you had no flipping idea what to do! Even Darian, our trusted human resource, a person who we are supposed to take at face value claims that sandbagging (starting low in cwl on purpose) doesn't have benefit?!!!

    Is he serious about that?! Start low, win a few to keep morale up, find your level while still getting rewards for everyone.

    Or.... Start in a leauge where you don't stand a chance. Lose constantly, hopefully dropping to find the right spot and waiting months to do so!

    As far as rewards go. You and I have been in the same clan before. Pretty sure you understand that I wish everyone gets rewards since I love seeing people progress faster than I ever could.

    Anyway. It's a solid conversation.
    Know that cwl is once a month, starting low would require an year to reach the top tier. So better start from what your weight is and find the place you could settle in.

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