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Thread: I need to confirm a matchmaking rule

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by iBork View Post
    The more defense upgrades you put in a base, the higher your opp will have. It's strange, but that's what I have observed. The instinct one has when your base gets smashed in war is to upgrade defenses. This is the wrong thing to do. On your next war, your opp will have even higher defenses.
    I'm not seeing this. What I am seeing (and I have seen this with both a TH9 max war and TH10 max war) is that at some point our opponents begin to have maxed defense. For instance, when we were warring with TH8 max and two of them went to TH9, we started to see some low TH9s. However, as our TH9s advanced their offense without advancing their defense we began to see stronger and stronger opponents' defense to the point where we matched max/near max nines when we didn't have xbows. So I had my nines drop their Xbows. The opponents did not get noticeably harder at all.

    Same goes for our TH10. He's got level 1 infernos and 3 level 3 xbows, and yet when we run him alone at the top we regularly match fully maxed TH10, 6 inferno levels and 12 xbow levels.
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thegreatpuma View Post
    I'm not seeing this. What I am seeing (and I have seen this with both a TH9 max war and TH10 max war) is that at some point our opponents begin to have maxed defense. For instance, when we were warring with TH8 max and two of them went to TH9, we started to see some low TH9s. However, as our TH9s advanced their offense without advancing their defense we began to see stronger and stronger opponents' defense to the point where we matched max/near max nines when we didn't have xbows. So I had my nines drop their Xbows. The opponents did not get noticeably harder at all.

    Same goes for our TH10. He's got level 1 infernos and 3 level 3 xbows, and yet when we run him alone at the top we regularly match fully maxed TH10, 6 inferno levels and 12 xbow levels.
    Yes, your TH8's were maxed. That is why. If they had their defenses held back 1 or 2 levels, that would have no happened.
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorJohnson View Post
    You are not seeing the forest through the trees.

    What you describe as the optimum upgrade path is the path everyone takes so the optimum path will in fact be the opposite. As you get to a new TH lvl, don't touch offense buildings like spell factory, camps, troops at all (including dropping warden) but just max out all your defense buildings you already have, storages, along with heroes. Once that is done then you can begin to drop new buildings and work on offense upgrades because those take the least amount of time to do.

    TH12 is a bit different situation than other Town Halls as the upgrade itself adds alot of weight and when you have many traditional upgraded new TH players, their offense will instantly be above their defense and will magnify the offense you are paired up with at the top.
    Once again, if you max defenses, then, when you upgrade the TH, you will get higher level defenses. I repeat, not maxing defenses will counter what you are describing. This then allows you to max offense and the base will be balanced for war.
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by iBork View Post
    Once again, if you max defenses, then, when you upgrade the TH, you will get higher level defenses. I repeat, not maxing defenses will counter what you are describing. This then allows you to max offense and the base will be balanced for war.
    You are not correct, offense is weighted higher so if you max offense it will pull higher defense and offense. Majority of weight is when you place new items rather than upgrading existing items. There is also more depth to this but I would definately not follow the status quo.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by littledoctor View Post
    3-4 hour matchmaking is a sign that your clan's lineup is not very "typical": in other words there are few clans with your weight and offense to defense ratio. The result is an increased chance of mismatch, which seems to be what you report.

    We don't know exact values for offense to defense ratio but if you think about it there are a few consistent categories that a base or clan can fall into: if offense is higher than defense, you'll resemble and draw opponents who use old-style engineering. If defense is higher than offense, you'll tend to resemble and draw opponents who are rushed. If things are totally balanced, you'll resemble and tend to draw opponents who are maxers. (Note though that without knowing what the values are, it's hard to stay totally balanced at the beginning and middle of a TH.)

    Lots of us now believe that the weight of the heavy defenses like eagle were reduced. I don't think there is an advantage any more to omitting the eagle. (Maybe if the entire clan does it, like someone said earlier.)

    If you are holding off on the eagle, and working on your other offense, then your ratio of offense to defense will probably be the same as another base that adds the eagle, but has 3-4 more months worth of lab upgrades (rough guess). That other base will have more overall weight than you, but the same ratio. So if there is an imbalance somewhere else in the clan that compensates for the weight difference, or if the war search has been going on for so long that there is a bigger gap allowed between the total weights of the two clans, I could see this result happening.

    It's my belief (no proof) that when the matchmaker relaxes parameters during a long search, it increases the % of difference allowed between war weights of two clans. If you are warring with several th11 on top (or if you have th12s on top), a few eagles will definitely be a small percentage of your overall clan's total war weight. So e.g. maybe at first it looks for a clan whose total weight is within 2% of yours, and has the same offense to defense ratio; after an hour, maybe it relaxes it to looking for a clan whose total weight is within 4% of yours, with the same offense to defense ratio. Maybe after two hours it relaxes it to 6%. Made up numbers to illustrate the point.
    +1. I like this doctor. Start to finish, makes good sense to me. Seems feasible, and would explain away a lot of the apparent mismatch threads. Shame I cant give more rep.


    Quote Originally Posted by Thegreatpuma View Post
    I'm not seeing this. What I am seeing (and I have seen this with both a TH9 max war and TH10 max war) is that at some point our opponents begin to have maxed defense. For instance, when we were warring with TH8 max and two of them went to TH9, we started to see some low TH9s. However, as our TH9s advanced their offense without advancing their defense we began to see stronger and stronger opponents' defense to the point where we matched max/near max nines when we didn't have xbows. So I had my nines drop their Xbows. The opponents did not get noticeably harder at all.

    Same goes for our TH10. He's got level 1 infernos and 3 level 3 xbows, and yet when we run him alone at the top we regularly match fully maxed TH10, 6 inferno levels and 12 xbow levels.

    Yeah. We see this too. Latest one is with out #1 in war. Is max 10 apart from heroes, which are growing fast. Last 2 wars, we drew a real 11 against us. Have been expecting, and waiting for it to happen. But I agree, as the accounts grow, it seems to hit a threshold whereby the oppo suddenly gets bigger, and it settles at the new level, even with missing pieces on our side. First noticed the trend after the 12 drop, when our non IT bases no longer gained advantage by not having them.
    Pre oppo 11, we were planning to jump ours to 11, to counter it,once it started. But since we won both wars, we have decided he carry on towards max 10 first, to allow others to try and close the gap, in case we require 2x 11s.



    Quote Originally Posted by iBork View Post
    Once again, if you max defenses, then, when you upgrade the TH, you will get higher level defenses. I repeat, not maxing defenses will counter what you are describing. This then allows you to max offense and the base will be balanced for war.

    I have enjoyed your posts so far. Some may disagree, but it makes sense to me. Got me thinking, when you said non max can defend same as max. Yeah, I buy that. At higher hall, so long as the pieces are there, they will kill even tho less than max hall. I would think a raid that would take the non max, would also take the max.
    Matterless of whether people agree or not, my basic philosophy ties in with this post I highlighted. I remind our clan that every time they upgrade their base, they are also, in theory, upgrading the oppo base. This way, I can keep anyone whom wants war, to resist the temptation to rush their base.
    I dont pay too much heed of what is causing any particular type of match up at present, so cant really commit as to how it determines matching once the jump is made, other than, as you approach max hall, then the chances of pulling next hall up increase. It could well be, that this trend will continue into the next level, if jumping from max hall. We have never been in that situation, apart from jumping from th8. Our heroes have always been lagging in the past.


    Quote Originally Posted by MajorJohnson View Post
    You are not correct, offense is weighted higher so if you max offense it will pull higher defense and offense. Majority of weight is when you place new items rather than upgrading existing items. There is also more depth to this but I would definately not follow the status quo.

    One of my rules is to not try and cross swords with you or Sam. To be fair, this ties in with what I would expect to be happening, having noticed that, even with our lower overall war weight, we dont need worry too much about drawing lop siders. They seem, on most occasions, to drain a lot of the power from oppo roster simply thru their inclusion, more so with 20v than 15v, so am guessing that the bigger wars allow for a bigger spread of weight differential.
    Def weighted MMA gave rise to engi supremacy, so maybe it stands to reason, theoretically, that a more off weighted MMA, due to the "cheaper" defences, will see its demise. And I deffo agree with the drop gain being the biggest. We upgrade existing before dropping new, apart from new walls at each new hall.

    So all in all, I agree with everybody. I have an open mind as to what is happening at the mo, to the point where some of my beliefs tend to contradict each other. Agree that big defences pull big defences. Think that the MM will be, by design, more anti engi, so more off weighted, and love to read the enlightened posts that get me thinking. All part of the education.
    Last edited by joshsgrandad; 3 Days Ago at 09:40 PM.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by joshsgrandad View Post
    +1. I like this doctor. Start to finish, makes good sense to me. Seems feasible, and would explain away a lot of the apparent mismatch threads. Shame I cant give more rep.





    Yeah. We see this too. Latest one is with out #1 in war. Is max 10 apart from heroes, which are growing fast. Last 2 wars, we drew a real 11 against us. Have been expecting, and waiting for it to happen. But I agree, as the accounts grow, it seems to hit a threshold whereby the oppo suddenly gets bigger, and it settles at the new level, even with missing pieces on our side. First noticed the trend after the 12 drop, when our non IT bases no longer gained advantage by not having them.
    Pre oppo 11, we were planning to jump ours to 11, to counter it,once it started. But since we won both wars, we have decided he carry on towards max 10 first, to allow others to try and close the gap, in case we require 2x 11s.






    I have enjoyed your posts so far. Some may disagree, but it makes sense to me. Got me thinking, when you said non max can defend same as max. Yeah, I buy that. At higher hall, so long as the pieces are there, they will kill even tho less than max hall. I would think a raid that would take the non max, would also take the max.
    Matterless of whether people agree or not, my basic philosophy ties in with this post I highlighted. I remind our clan that every time they upgrade their base, they are also, in theory, upgrading the oppo base. This way, I can keep anyone whom wants war, to resist the temptation to rush their base.
    I dont pay too much heed of what is causing any particular type of match up at present, so cant really commit as to how it determines matching once the jump is made, other than, as you approach max hall, then the chances of pulling next hall up increase. It could well be, that this trend will continue into the next level, if jumping from max hall. We have never been in that situation, apart from jumping from th8. Our heroes have always been lagging in the past.





    One of my rules is to not try and cross swords with you or Sam. To be fair, this ties in with what I would expect to be happening, having noticed that, even with our lower overall war weight, we dont need worry too much about drawing lop siders. They seem, on most occasions, to drain a lot of the power from oppo roster simply thru their inclusion, more so with 20v than 15v, so am guessing that the bigger wars allow for a bigger spread of weight differential.
    Def weighted MMA gave rise to engi supremacy, so maybe it stands to reason, theoretically, that a more off weighted MMA, due to the "cheaper" defences, will see its demise. And I deffo agree with the drop gain being the biggest. We upgrade existing before dropping new, apart from new walls at each new hall.

    So all in all, I agree with everybody. I have an open mind as to what is happening at the mo, to the point where some of my beliefs tend to contradict each other. Agree that big defences pull big defences. Think that the MM will be, by design, more anti engi, so more off weighted, and love to read the enlightened posts that get me thinking. All part of the education.
    Totally agree with joshsgrandad,
    bigger wars allow for a bigger spread of weight differential. +1
    War weight != MMA +1
    Spells/Camps/Troop level Carry hevay war weight +1
    EA/IT carry lower weight than you see on MMA +1

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