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Thread: New BH5 VS BH8 below 1500 trophies

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yachi View Post
    Rushing to BH8 isn't a solution, just a workaround because the system is as such. Even if he intends to rush, he'll have to go through many loss streaks to get to a point of winning before he gains any loot to even attempt to rush. That period frustrates many, and will make or break the game for them.
    It is a solution.

    Sure you might want to wait for SC to solve the issue, but that's not gonna happen soon, not when SC didn't even said anything about changing the Builder Base matchmaking. Beachdude67 provided a solution, he didn't say it is an easy way, but it's definitely easier than staying at lower BH level. Yes, the players might need to go through many losing streak to even attempt to rush, but staying at lower BH level means they will go through many more losing streaks in an attempt to max current BH level, and when he go to the next BH level, same thing will happen. So rushing to BH8 is definitely easier path and a solution.

  2. #32
    Forum Champion Noctaire's Avatar
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    Rushing to BH8 is not a solution nor is it a workaround - itís how the game is played. Anyone who plays the game differently has no validity to their complaint and this constant beating of the much dead horse is a waste of time and effort. Likewise, OPís embellishment of the loss streak - also common to these threads - does not serve himself or anyone else well as it merely discombobulates the entire matter with hyperbole.

    The REAL issue here is that high level players, with mature games, are able to artificially deflate their placement in the game to drop trophies and bully weaker players. Lower loot is intended to discourage that but unsportsmanlike conduct is common in any game where it can occur. This is simply exploitation of the gameís design - something Clash of Clans has suffered with since its inception 6 years ago. Clearly, lesser loot is an inadequate disincentive and something else (such as base trophy rankings by BH within the matchmaker) is required.

    IMNSHO, the best thing SC could do to combat this is set a base ranking for each BH to prevent them from matching outside their class once they attain their class. For example, no matter how low a BH8 goes in the trophies, he would always start in the matchmaker at 3000 once he reaches that point; BH7 always starts at 2500; BH6 always start at 2000; and so on. That would allow weak, low level rushed players to work their way up without facing TOO strong an opponent that could no longer advance while ending the benefits of dropping for an easy kill.

    BTW -> Iíve documented, with great detail - both here and my blog/YT channel - how to rush a game to the top level from scratch twice now. I did not experience major losing streaks and it was done rapidly. In 4 months, I had a L5/L6 defender crushing just under 4K trophies. If I can do it, so can anyone else who wants to put in the effort (and it was minimal effort at that).
    Last edited by Noctaire; 1 Week Ago at 02:24 AM.
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noctaire View Post
    The REAL issue here is that high level players, with mature games, are able to artificially deflate their placement in the game to drop trophies and bully weaker players. Lower loot is intended to discourage that but unsportsmanlike conduct is common in any game where it can occur. This is simply exploitation of the gameís design - something Clash of Clans has suffered with since its inception 6 years ago. Clearly, lesser loot is an inadequate disincentive and something else (such as base trophy rankings by BH within the matchmaker) is required.

    IMNSHO, the best thing SC could do to combat this is set a base ranking for each BH to prevent them from matching outside their class once they attain their class. For example, no matter how low a BH8 goes in the trophies, he would always start in the matchmaker at 3000 once he reaches that point; BH7 always starts at 2500; BH6 always start at 2000; and so on. That would allow weak, low level rushed players to work their way up without facing TOO strong an opponent that could no longer advance while ending the benefits of dropping for an easy kill.
    Can you kindly elaborate how this works?


  4. #34
    Forum Champion Noctaire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yachi View Post
    Can you kindly elaborate how this works?
    No one complains about the higher BH level player they can beat - and there are plenty. As I’ve said many times - BH level is truly not relevant to these discussions, it’s the maturity of the base and the attacking skills of both players.

    On the one hand - if a player is a good attacker and his opponent’s higher level BH is weak, he will often win the match. On the other hand, if the opposing player has superior offensive capabilities and/or is a better attacker, then he will likely win instead.

    Normally, that would mean his trophy ranking would rise - continually - until he reaches his peers. The “underdog” has no valid complaint if he lost to a superior player that was legitimately at his level - perhaps he was newer to the game and had not yet developed beyond that point, or maybe he just recently upped his skills/capabilities, but he was at the lower trophy ranking still for a valid reason within the scope of regular gameplay. This is normal - expected even - and wholly self-regulating. In other words - it’s not a problem. None of the players who come here complaining meet these stronger players frequently, no matter how much they claim to be a 500 trophies as a BH1 seeing only fully maxed BH8s.

    The problem, however, is when a stronger player - offensive capabilities, defensive capabilities, and attacking skills - decides to compete against inferior players not as a matter of regular play but by exploiting the ranking itself and dropping trophies to reach them. This would be like the heavyweight contender going over to the welterweights gym and pummeling them one at a time. It’s the player with a PB of 4500 that you find at 2500. There’s nothing natural about this reversal of progression. No sport would allow it - it’s an artificial deflation of one’s true rank and capabilities. It is unsportsmanlike and just plain wrong. (It is NOT, however, the same as two welterweights near the top of their class but with a 5 pound difference facing off.)

    This behavior needs to be discouraged. It is common on the HV since you can choose your league/trophy level and there is easy moment between trophies. SC disincentivized this by giving substantially less loot the lower you go. Clearly, they underestimated these players. They need something to enforce it.

    One way way of doing that is to assign a base value within the matchmaker for a game. We discussed this for the CW matchmaker on the HV many times. What’s the issue...? A player who has crossed X number of trophies during the natural development of their game dropping to beat up on players who are naturally at a lower trophy level because they are not as far along. So..set the bottom threshold for these players. Something like, “...as a BH8, once you cross 3000 trophies, that’s the lowest place you will match, win or lose”.

    Programmatically, they would simply have to look at the PB for the player, his current trophy level, his BH level, and write an If/then statement like....

    If BHx >= 8 AND PB > 3000 Then MMMin = 3000
    If CurrentTrophy < MMMin Then MMMatchingValue = MMMin Else MMMatchingValue = CurrentTrophy

    That could be simplified further; I use the above to explain the logic better.

    Presto - there would no longer be any point in dropping trophies below 3000. BH8 players would never match against anyone less than a BH7 once they grew their game above 3000 which is where a L4 defending BH8 can reach easily. Likewise, players still developing their game and skills would be able to continue to work their way up, facing stronger opponents until they reached their peer group.

    There would need to be more analysis there, but you get the gist. Perhaps there are other ways to address the bully behavior but I think something like this would offer the best solution as it does not play the game of weighting a base but instead tracks progress and prevents predatory behaviors. Of course, I’ve no doubt there would be some players who figure out the thresholds and just never allow their games to advance beyond it as they upgrade. If that becomes significant then it would need to be reconsidered.
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  5. #35
    Forum Veteran Yachi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noctaire View Post
    No one complains about the higher BH level player they can beat - and there are plenty. As I’ve said many times - BH level is truly not relevant to these discussions, it’s the maturity of the base and the attacking skills of both players.

    On the one hand - if a player is a good attacker and his opponent’s higher level BH is weak, he will often win the match. On the other hand, if the opposing player has superior offensive capabilities and/or is a better attacker, then he will likely win instead.

    Normally, that would mean his trophy ranking would rise - continually - until he reaches his peers. The “underdog” has no valid complaint if he lost to a superior player that was legitimately at his level - perhaps he was newer to the game and had not yet developed beyond that point, or maybe he just recently upped his skills/capabilities, but he was at the lower trophy ranking still for a valid reason within the scope of regular gameplay. This is normal - expected even - and wholly self-regulating. In other words - it’s not a problem. None of the players who come here complaining meet these stronger players frequently, no matter how much they claim to be a 500 trophies as a BH1 seeing only fully maxed BH8s.

    The problem, however, is when a stronger player - offensive capabilities, defensive capabilities, and attacking skills - decides to compete against inferior players not as a matter of regular play but by exploiting the ranking itself and dropping trophies to reach them. This would be like the heavyweight contender going over to the welterweights gym and pummeling them one at a time. It’s the player with a PB of 4500 that you find at 2500. There’s nothing natural about this reversal of progression. No sport would allow it - it’s an artificial deflation of one’s true rank and capabilities. It is unsportsmanlike and just plain wrong. (It is NOT, however, the same as two welterweights near the top of their class but with a 5 pound difference facing off.)

    This behavior needs to be discouraged. It is common on the HV since you can choose your league/trophy level and there is easy moment between trophies. SC disincentivized this by giving substantially less loot the lower you go. Clearly, they underestimated these players. They need something to enforce it.

    One way way of doing that is to assign a base value within the matchmaker for a game. We discussed this for the CW matchmaker on the HV many times. What’s the issue...? A player who has crossed X number of trophies during the natural development of their game dropping to beat up on players who are naturally at a lower trophy level because they are not as far along. So..set the bottom threshold for these players. Something like, “...as a BH8, once you cross 3000 trophies, that’s the lowest place you will match, win or lose”.

    Programmatically, they would simply have to look at the PB for the player, his current trophy level, his BH level, and write an If/then statement like....

    If BHx >= 8 AND PB > 3000 Then MMMin = 3000
    If CurrentTrophy < MMMin Then MMMatchingValue = MMMin Else MMMatchingValue = CurrentTrophy

    That could be simplified further; I use the above to explain the logic better.

    Presto - there would no longer be any point in dropping trophies below 3000. BH8 players would never match against anyone less than a BH7 once they grew their game above 3000 which is where a L4 defending BH8 can reach easily. Likewise, players still developing their game and skills would be able to continue to work their way up, facing stronger opponents until they reached their peer group.

    There would need to be more analysis there, but you get the gist. Perhaps there are other ways to address the bully behavior but I think something like this would offer the best solution as it does not play the game of weighting a base but instead tracks progress and prevents predatory behaviors. Of course, I’ve no doubt there would be some players who figure out the thresholds and just never allow their games to advance beyond it as they upgrade. If that becomes significant then it would need to be reconsidered.
    Interesting... it is certainly something to be considered. I do have a small concern though. If a rushed BTH8 manages to barely scrape past 3K, which happens to be the lowest benchmark a BTH8 can hit, will there be a situation where he suffers a continuous loss streak because he could not be regulated below 3K?


  6. #36
    Forum Champion Noctaire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yachi View Post
    Interesting... it is certainly something to be considered. I do have a small concern though. If a rushed BTH8 manages to barely scrape past 3K, which happens to be the lowest benchmark a BTH8 can hit, will there be a situation where he suffers a continuous loss streak because he could not be regulated below 3K?
    Not if the thresholds are properly reviewed and set using game data that only SC has access to. If they really wanted to be slick, they could even set the thresholds daily - a dynamic value they could assess each night based on the previous day’s gameplay. As the game matures, new levels are released, and so on, the reasonable threshold changes.

    Unfortunately, SC has always resisted the idea of base values where it affects matchmaking, even though it’s the simplest and most obvious solution to design and implement. This time around, though, I do not see any other way to adjust player behavior. And I suspect this trophy dropping tactic will become more and more prevalent over time.
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  7. #37
    Forum Veteran Yachi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noctaire View Post
    Not if the thresholds are properly reviewed and set using game data that only SC has access to. If they really wanted to be slick, they could even set the thresholds daily - a dynamic value they could assess each night based on the previous day’s gameplay. As the game matures, new levels are released, and so on, the reasonable threshold changes.

    Unfortunately, SC has always resisted the idea of base values where it affects matchmaking, even though it’s the simplest and most obvious solution to design and implement. This time around, though, I do not see any other way to adjust player behavior. And I suspect this trophy dropping tactic will become more and more prevalent over time.
    Yes, especially during clan games. Let's wait and see if they can address this once the more urgent issues on the main village are resolved.


  8. #38
    Centennial Club Draegar's Avatar
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    The issue OP describes is exactly what I am (and was) describing for more than a year and i think it is a real issue. Nothing that can be solved by shrugging it off.
    I myself have 5 bases and I have completely stopped playing BB exactly because of this. I think the MM system in BB needs an overhaul as big as the cloud problem in main base legends.

  9. #39
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    TLDR the whole thread. Sorry, I hate when other people respond without reading, but all of your replies were soooo long!

    For a BH8 to be at 1500 trophies and stay there, they have to intentionally lose a lot of matches - just as many if not more than how many they win. Nobody seems to complain about all of the wins they get from an opponent who drops a 0%.

    I have five equal BH7s that I maintain around 2500. I just don't have enough time in my day for more than 15 matches. I boost, win 3, drop a 0%, move to the next account. I log on two more times during the day for the remaining two boosts where I drop another 0% each. Rinse and repeat the next day. I found losing streaks at higher trophies very frustrating, so rather than quitting, at least I'm still progressing... at the expense of someone else's frustration.

    Wow, look at that. A long reply. I hope people read it

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