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Thread: Honest Question, how is this war fair?

  1. #1

    Angry Honest Question, how is this war fair?

    Hey,

    I've been playing clash for several years on several accounts, spent hundreds of dollars, played competitive at the highest levels and casual. One thing that has always been a sore point for me is the matchmaking system. I just have never understood why it can be so fundamentally unfair.

    Our last war, our clan had a 13-war win streak snapped by a clan who had a gross town hall advantage. We had 1 TH12, 3 TH11s (two of which who upgraded in the last month from TH10 and are still upgrading basic structures and traps), 4 TH10s (one recently upgraded in the last month), and 2 TH9s. The other clan had a TH12, 5 TH11s (all nearly max defensively, only 3 of them did not have infernos or eagles), and 4 full TH10s with infernos and mostly max buildings.

    Their defense advantage was significant, their offense advantage was significant. The only thing that skewed in our favor was that overall our BK and AQ levels were higher. But, then again, I'd much rather have a 30/30/20 with a TH11 lab than a 40/40 with a TH10 lab in any scenario. What's the rationale here for why this is considered a fair match? SC keeps doing updates to prevent these kinds of matchups, but this result is one of the worst I've ever seen. How broken is the war weight system that they consider a base with full max th11 defenses included 4 xbows is only 82K. Have you ever attacked one of these bases? It's harder than hitting a mid-level TH10 or even a max TH10.

    Are we considered engineered by the SC algorithm because we have a few accounts that pushed the button to new TH's within the last month or two (since the update) and are still fumbling around with traps and lab upgrades and haven't had time to drop infernos/eagles?


  2. #2
    dang that is unfortunate. well done on your score looks like you achieved almost perfect despite the odds.

    honestly i believe that new th11s should drop eagle once they reach level 5 warden if they were max th10 prior. otherwise it seemed like my clan was susceptible to matching ♥♥♥♥ like that.

    i know that its a lame solution but that's how i believe supercell's matchmaker algorithm to interpret things.
    Co-Leader of Monkey Bizness. Lv 18 constant war clan. #GV228Q9
    The Frosty Trinity
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    Inferno - TH12 - K50/Q50/W20


  3. #3
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    I do not think that the going to TH11 working on offense only has much impact on the match up, there is no Engineer flag or something. Probably the win-streak of 13 has much more to do with it. Also I think heroes weigh a lot for some time now, so probably your heroes are upgraded "too much". Next to that, it could be just a one-time mismatch.

    Not knowing all the offense levels you cannot honestly say it is a fair or unfair match-up offensively. Defensive wise it looks unfair.

    If you really want to know more, you should stop ALL upgrades (offense AND defense) on all players and do 10 wars with exactly the same roster. That would give you much better data to judge match ups.
    Last edited by Freshspown; July 10th, 2018 at 08:04 AM.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by HotardAg07 View Post

    Hey,

    I've been playing clash for several years on several accounts, spent hundreds of dollars, played competitive at the highest levels and casual. One thing that has always been a sore point for me is the matchmaking system. I just have never understood why it can be so fundamentally unfair.
    That is very interesting. So when you note your TH11s as being TH10s on the attached image, is that common practice in those competitive highest level wars you were part of. Or did you just start using that mentality once you never understood why matchmaking could be so fundamentally unfair?

    Quote Originally Posted by HotardAg07 View Post
    Our last war, our clan had a 13-war win streak snapped by a clan who had a gross town hall advantage. We had 1 TH12, 3 TH11s (two of which who upgraded in the last month from TH10 and are still upgrading basic structures and traps), 4 TH10s (one recently upgraded in the last month), and 2 TH9s. The other clan had a TH12, 5 TH11s (all nearly max defensively, only 3 of them did not have infernos or eagles), and 4 full TH10s with infernos and mostly max buildings.
    Why so dramatic? The war ended 28-28 and your #1 player didn't even use his 2nd attack.

    Even if the matchmaking was favorable to your lineup, you still likely would lose if your strongest player no shows.

    Quote Originally Posted by HotardAg07 View Post
    Their defense advantage was significant, their offense advantage was significant. The only thing that skewed in our favor was that overall our BK and AQ levels were higher. But, then again, I'd much rather have a 30/30/20 with a TH11 lab than a 40/40 with a TH10 lab in any scenario. What's the rationale here for why this is considered a fair match? SC keeps doing updates to prevent these kinds of matchups, but this result is one of the worst I've ever seen. How broken is the war weight system that they consider a base with full max th11 defenses included 4 xbows is only 82K. Have you ever attacked one of these bases? It's harder than hitting a mid-level TH10 or even a max TH10.
    Most clans will take the hero advantage every day of the week.


    Quote Originally Posted by HotardAg07 View Post
    It's harder than hitting a mid-level TH10 or even a max TH10.
    This might have some truth to it 2 months ago. But with the advent of the wall wrecker this simply isn't true anymore.

    And you know this. Your 32/30 TH10 sitting way down low at #8 happily 3 starred your opponents #9 and #10. Sure, maybe it wasn't easy for the guy. But the difficulty of the war was not determined by not being able to 3 star these difficult bases you speak of.

    Quote Originally Posted by HotardAg07 View Post
    Are we considered engineered by the SC algorithm because we have a few accounts that pushed the button to new TH's within the last month or two (since the update) and are still fumbling around with traps and lab upgrades and haven't had time to drop infernos/eagles?
    Your side it cutting corners just like your opponent is. One of your TH11s has a level 44 queen and only 1 army camp upgraded, so I can see what you mean by fumbling around. I think you could see some improvements by dropping eagles on your TH11s. It may help with getting out of the engineering pool, if such a thing exists still.
    Last edited by BoBoTheGoat; July 10th, 2018 at 08:11 AM.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotardAg07 View Post
    Are we considered engineered by the SC algorithm because we have a few accounts that pushed the button to new TH's within the last month or two (since the update) and are still fumbling around with traps and lab upgrades and haven't had time to drop infernos/eagles?
    Regardless, the smart way to engineer at each new TH level now appears to be building the eagle, infernos and xbows as quickly as practical.

  6. #6
    Forum Superstar TankSinatra's Avatar
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    Summed it up based on your numbers, and its 881 def to 925, that's within the normal variation. But ignore the bottom 3 (lot of us suspect the MM puts greater emphasis on matching the top) and its 673 to 682.


    Doesn't make it fair (bet we'd see a mismatch if we could run the offensive numbers) but helps to show how the MM arrived at the match. Curious about their history, could you put up their clan tag? Should be OK since we're not naming/shaming/accusing them of anything.


    Congrats on the streak, and don't sweat losing it across a major update. Mine'll go too soon, we abandoned a winning formula so a couple guys could play with the new toys.
    It's always the closet engineers that are the most bitter. Trying to maintain a righteous pose while doing exactly what they claim to hate, lashing out at anyone that points out the obvious.

  7. #7
    Thank you for the thoughtful replies. Sorry I sounded dramatic, I was a bit frustrated we lost, but I genuinely want to see what you guys thought led to what I perceive as the imbalance.

    That is very interesting. So when you note your TH11s as being TH10s on the attached image, is that common practice in those competitive highest level wars you were part of. Or did you just start using that mentality once you never understood why matchmaking could be so fundamentally unfair?
    That was an honest mistake. Did not catch it, they're obviously fresh TH11s.
    [quote]Why so dramatic? The war ended 28-28 and your #1 player didn't even use his 2nd attack.

    Even if the matchmaking was favorable to your lineup, you still likely would lose if your strongest player no shows./[quote]Not sure what you're talking about, our #1 player (me) did both attacks. On my second attack I had a 99% 2-star fail on their #3 that lost us the war. Still feel bad about it.


    Most clans will take the hero advantage every day of the week.
    I don't really think any player would rather have a th10 with 40/40 over a TH11 with 30/30/20 and a max lab. It's really not even close.
    This might have some truth to it 2 months ago. But with the advent of the wall wrecker this simply isn't true anymore.

    And you know this. Your 32/30 TH10 sitting way down low at #8 happily 3 starred your opponents #9 and #10. Sure, maybe it wasn't easy for the guy. But the difficulty of the war was not determined by not being able to 3 star these difficult bases you speak of.
    It simply is true. I actually also play the 32/30 in question, and the only reason I was able to triple some fo those bases is because they were such poor designs. One of the bases I was able to hog and the person was stupid enough to put all of his giant bombs surrounding the town hall, which I was able to diffuse with my kill squad so my hogs didn't nick any bombs or spring traps throughout the entire raid. It is also an internet base I have hit in 3 straight wars.

    Your side it cutting corners just like your opponent is. One of your TH11s has a level 44 queen and only 1 army camp upgraded, so I can see what you mean by fumbling around. I think you could see some improvements by dropping eagles on your TH11s. It may help with getting out of the engineering pool, if such a thing exists still.
    Why are we cutting corners? The Th11 who has a level 44 queen and 1 army camp just upgraded literally 3 weeks ago. He's gemming or using books to keep his queen up, but the upgrade time on the army camps is like 2 weeks, so they're not all done yet. Like I said, he's still churning through all the basic upgrades so not everything is done yet.

    Regardless, the smart way to engineer at each new TH level now appears to be building the eagle, infernos and xbows as quickly as practical.
    You might be right. It goes against everything I've been taught about upgrading progression (starting with camps, traps then going onto teslas/ads), but that mentality was probably based on an old matchmaking algorithm.

    Curious about their history, could you put up their clan tag? Should be OK since we're not naming/shaming/accusing them of anything.
    #809LJ9C8

    Their war log actually isn't that great, think we had a better last-50 record than them. They really weren't that good across the board with the strats they used and their base designs, just had a lot more dips available to them and we couldn't get to 29.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by HotardAg07 View Post
    I don't really think any player would rather have a th10 with 40/40 over a TH11 with 30/30/20 and a max lab. It's really not even close.
    I agree and have always thought SC should intentionally weight heroes lower than what their real value is, especially the royals, maybe not the warden. I’d rather they lean toward rewarding that very difficult upgrade and making sure to not reward the easier rush to the next hall with lower heroes path.
    Contact SC here. Click here to see how trophies are calculated. My tips/thoughts on Legends here. My legends hope: 14 hours daily search limit to reduce advantage of account sharing; black clouds screen; Legends3 5000-5499 cups, Legends2 5500-5999, Legends1 6000+ and titans/champs canít attack Legends1 or 2 players; while in clouds let us watch war, donate, do FCs, base design. Make a separate PvP trophy ladder option for all, others found here.

  9. #9
    Pro Member TheGame1's Avatar
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    As a clan who drops defences earlier than most (I'm guessing), I would atleast do camps, cc and your main war troop plus lvl 5 warden before dropping eagle, we actually had a guy who dropped eagle and booked it within seconds of turning th11, we warred him for a while but he had nothing to give him an advantage of hitting th10's, not to mention the fact we were now seeing an extra 11, had to give up on him in the end.

    I also think clans that have a few people move up town halls together can struggle while they get used to the new content. We've always done well when everyone in war has been settled at their levels for a few months, but historically as soon a few move up within a few weeks of each other we normally see more losses than normal, I see you say you have 2 out of 3 Th11's are brand new and 1 new Th10 in a 10 man war, so that's a third of your roster.

    Were in the same position with our 11's being brand new - Honestly I don't really know how the MM should match them, they shouldn't really pull their old town hall level which in turn means while they get settled and start upgrading defences they will probably be out matched by slightly heavier bases for a while.

  10. #10
    Millennial Club MajorJohnson's Avatar
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    Considering you only lost because you got 99% says to me your war was fair enough.

    You will never have completely balanced matches, and you were on a considerable streak beforehand so I would say you just got out engineered.

    Better luck next time

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