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Thread: This is wrong and should be fixed (inferno weights)

  1. #21
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    I agree. Maybe gold amounts are not regarded as war weights now. Despite this, the so called new war weights (which r not visible to common folks) seem to work similarly which is seen in wars. Isn't this true that war maps are arranged in descending order of weights? As read from some of earlier replies, some say it isn't. So, if they aren't arranged that way then what's the logic of war maps. A base lower in no. can have more weight means that there must be cases where eg.th9 be at higher position than th10 excluding cases of engineering.
    We also had a similar case in our last war.A 9.11 with maxed th11 deff (just unbuilt infrnos and eagle) was below th10s with lvl1 infrnos. Th10s couldn't 3star it though it was positioned below usual th10s.

    Overall what I mean to say is, if infrnos don't have much weight then engineering must not exist in first place. Engineering's existence shows that infrnos and eagles hv more weights than other deff. Maybe their weights were decreased but still they weight more than other deff. Meaning engineering is still prevalent. Despite this I think just decreasing infrnos weight won't solve the problem bcz it will create some other type of mismatches n if it was a solution SC could hv solved it way earlier. It is a difficult problem where more weights create problem of engineering n lower weights will create other mismatches (unable to explain in words but i think everyone can think of it).

    Note : Building lvl1 infrnos add 5k gold weight n upgrading to lvl2 adds more 5k. And lvl1 eagle adds 10k. (source : recent war notes)
    Last edited by BlazeStormz123; 6 Days Ago at 02:36 AM.
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  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Wizzie View Post
    Even more confused now, so if infernos could be very low weight now, could you kindly and patiently explain to me how a Th9’s (let’s discount the infernos) archer towers, canons, wiz towers etc are coming in higher than a max Th11’s ?? (If you think about it for a minute that is absurd, and therefore the infernos MUST be contributing a lot (still). a heck of a lot because that’s a lot of defenses to beat
    Coming in higher how/where? The map order? All that means is SC didn’t adjust the gold weights (which is what the map order is based on) when they adjusted the weights the matchmaker actually uses.

    Quote Originally Posted by joshsgrandad View Post
    I was also of the opinion, that the war map was compiled using defensive strength, which at the time, was generally considered gold weight.
    But 2 things, to stretch the point a little.. 1/ Even if gold weight was simply a bonus, for taking on a more difficult target, then the 9.11 defences should still be considered harder than the 9/IT base, due to the extra/higher level defensive pieces. As the OP stated, they can take the 9/IT base with a 10, the 9.11 is much more formidable. 2/.. Thought defensively compiled map was a visual aid, to assist with choosing the level of difficulty, and war attack strategic planning. I would think, that since it is conceivable that gold weight hasnt meant much for a while now, then OP has a point when he says the IT is still placing above the th11 defences.
    Otherwise, it means that the war map is simply a random action, which does not appear to be the case, when we do war.

    As an edit.. What is gold weight?.. And if it is something irrelevant, then why would SC compile the war map around it?
    The war map has bases ranked based on the gold storages amount. Many players thought based on match results that some weights were adjusted and that gold storage weights were no longer accurate. Then, Darian confirmed they did adjust weights for the matchmaker, yet since we know the gold storage weights didn’t change, we therefor believe this confirms the gold storage weights no longer tell us the war matchmaker weights.

    Yes, the map order doesn’t accurately reflect the difficulty/strength of the bases always and that used to be a big problem when that meant the matchmaker was also incorrectly considering the strengths of the bases. Now that the map order isn’t necessarily reflective of what the matchmaker actually considers as the strengths of those bases, it is less of a problem. I don’t think they have it perfect yet, but it has improved. OP doesn’t really have a point when he refers to how the map order “still” is because we know the gold storage weights didn’t change, but if those are no longer used by the matchmaker then that means you can no longer look at the map order and assume that is how the matchmaker weighed the bases for the match.

    Regarding your edit, the gold weights didn’t used to be irrelevant. They used to show the defensive weights used by the matchmaker. Apparently now SC decided they don’t want us to know the defensive weights, so when they made adjustments to the matchmaker they left the old gold storage weights the same.
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  3. #23
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    I do get the point with gold weights mate. I agree, the game moved on, but gold didn't. That discussion proved to be pretty conclusive that they don't fit, and was a great source of knowledge, to us (former) slaves of gold weight.
    The bit that confuses me, and the OP, if he doesn't mind a mention, is the war map compilation.
    I always concede to the "blue badge", as you guys are top dogs. But maybe the fact we, as a clan, don't dabble in the bigger engi bases, makes what we see as black and white (to us). So, dropping the word "weight", as it can distort the issue, what we see, is that the harder base to attack, is higher up the map.
    It could well be, which is what you may be referring, that SC simply see an IT base as harder than a non IT base, regardless of the other defences present. But it doesn't make a lot of sense, if this is how it is scaled. They may as well be by alphabetical order, so far as planning goes.
    Just a pure statement here.. If they saw IT as an overwhelming defensive influence, and henceforth gave it a higher strategic place on the map, then they should really have revisited the list, once they pulled its teeth.

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by joshsgrandad View Post
    I do get the point with gold weights mate. I agree, the game moved on, but gold didn't. That discussion proved to be pretty conclusive that they don't fit, and was a great source of knowledge, to us (former) slaves of gold weight.
    The bit that confuses me, and the OP, if he doesn't mind a mention, is the war map compilation.
    I always concede to the "blue badge", as you guys are top dogs. But maybe the fact we, as a clan, don't dabble in the bigger engi bases, makes what we see as black and white (to us). So, dropping the word "weight", as it can distort the issue, what we see, is that the harder base to attack, is higher up the map.
    It could well be, which is what you may be referring, that SC simply see an IT base as harder than a non IT base, regardless of the other defences present. But it doesn't make a lot of sense, if this is how it is scaled. They may as well be by alphabetical order, so far as planning goes.
    Just a pure statement here.. If they saw IT as an overwhelming defensive influence, and henceforth gave it a higher strategic place on the map, then they should really have revisited the list, once they pulled its teeth.
    But the war map matches gold weights. Always has from the very start of wars, and still does even after all the fiddling with the MM last year. (Actually there's a slight discrepancy: the map order is set at the start of prep day, and the gold loot and bonuses are calculated at the END of prep day. So if someone upgrades something big during prep day there can be a difference; but this is uncommon)

    So, although OP was saying, rather tetchily, that he wasn't talking about gold weights, as soon as he mentioned map order he was. The inferno has long been heavily overvalued in gold/map weights. It was arguably overvalued back in 2015. It got increased a lot in the March 2016 disaster. And the value hasn't changed since - neither when the heal effect was removed, nor during any of the MM changes. So no-one has ever really disputed it's overvalued when looking at map order.

    But, then we're left with the question of whether this is relevant at all to how clans are matched now. It was once. I'm sure originally the system calculated the defence and offence strength of a base for matching; the map was ranked by descending defence. The gold loot and win bonus were calculated from the defence strength (see my non-linear ramblings thread for the formula used in that calculation).

    But in the last 10 months or so SC have changed the MM a lot. Improved it a lot. Clans which omit infernos/eagles match visibly differently now. Darian has even stated they changed the weights of guns (even though the gold and map values didn't change at all). So I've been suggesting that SC made a new, more realistic, set of weights. And then used them to calculate a defence score for matching purposes. But left the old, frankly pretty awful, set of weights in place for the loot and map order.

    It's true that having bases so out of whack on the map isn't helpful. But it's not a critical problem. And SC do seem very keen indeed on nerfing engineering. If they used the new weights for gold and/or map it would be possible to crack them and calculate the values. They always intended the weights to be secret. There was a quote long ago on reddit where SC reacted in some surprise and confusion to players talking about "war weight" - and hadn't expected the gold loot to be used by players that way. So it seems plausible to me that they've decided to keep the new weights truly secret by leaving the old, dud ones in place where we could analyse them.

    It is speculation. But I'm sure, and I think I've convinced many of the regulars on here. And if this is true, then the map order is totally unrelated to how clans match these days. The map order is now a historical relic of how matching used to work in the bad old days. Map order is indeed rubbish, and a bit unhelpful - but SC probably see that as the lesser of 2 two evils.
    Last edited by OnyxDS; 6 Days Ago at 08:44 AM.
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  5. #25
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    Well, that's 2 of you guys said the same now. And I highly respect both of you.
    To add, I totally agree that we are being outgunned war after war, and am at a bit of a loss as to why. I had already accepted that gold is rubbish, but still took it that a rough guide could be taken from it. That does not seem to be the case any more, judging by the top end we draw (so far as how the actual match was made).
    It will take a mental effort, to remove myself from working down the map, with regards to a bases defensive capability, but our matches do suggest there are other things in play now. As to how we are being matched, I am still tending to blame that our roster is almost full of almost "max for hall" accounts.
    Shame they changed it (apart from throwing engi a curve ball), as I like visual aids, whether it be in game or real life. Oh for the simplicity. But I can easily concede to you guys so far as the actual matching "behind the scenes". Only wished they would leave the map as some sort of indicator.

  6. #26
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    OK accepted that gold weights r not useful now since there's something behind it doing the real job. But what i would like to know is what does it do then if map order is still determined by gold weight. In other words, it is being told that 9.11 has higher defensive war weight more than infrnos which cannot be explained by gold. But the thing is this statement seems like words only bcz how is it helping to make fairer matches is not clear.I mean if so called new invisible war weight exists, n with respect to which 9.11 has more weight than th10s with ITs but it seems like for name sake only.How is it improving or on first hand impacting wars??Can any1 explain in a practical manner rather than just telling 9.11 has some invisible weight that is more than ITs.
    Last edited by BlazeStormz123; 6 Days Ago at 10:30 AM.
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  7. #27
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    OK.. From what I have deduced. The gold weight is the format they used in the past for matching purposes.
    At that time, each piece of defence will have been given a value. Those values will be added to give each account a score. this score would once have been the defensive weight, but no longer applies.
    So, the match will have been done using a new method, but the gold score values were never updated, but are still used to present the scale on the war map. Hence there can be a massive deviation between what you see, and what is actual.. Hope I picked it up right, and also explained it ok. In other words, the war map is irrelevant to matching weights.
    I suppose they have to pick some way of displaying the map, and gold weight has stood the test of time. Unfortunately, if it doesn't relate to current matching criteria, it does nothing but display the names in a neat line.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by joshsgrandad View Post
    It could well be, which is what you may be referring, that SC simply see an IT base as harder than a non IT base, regardless of the other defences present.
    SC previously overvalued the IT. They thought it was so important they gave it a huge weight. It is important, but it isn’t as important as the accumulation of a lot of other upgrades. Players figured that out and stopped building infernos. The value on defense wasn’t worth the weight in wars. It seems now SC has reduced the weight of infernos. However, they apparently don’t want us to know by how much, so they didn’t change the gold weights. That leaves us with a map order that is no longer always consistent with how the matchmaker actually valued those bases for defensive weight.


    Quote Originally Posted by BlazeStormz123 View Post
    How is it improving or on first hand impacting wars??Can any1 explain in a practical manner rather than just telling 9.11 has some invisible weight that is more than ITs.
    Well, if infernos and eagles previously weighed too much in the matchmaker for the amount of defensive value they provided and now their weights have been reduced (the weights used by the matchmaker, not the gold storages that determine map order) that is an improvement. If you believe something was weighed too heavily before and now the weight has been reduced, that is an improvement, right? Another example would be if certain point defenses like archer towers were previously believed to be underweighted and now their weights increased (I don’t know if they were increased, this is just an example) then that is an improvement.
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  9. #29
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    Ok thanks. Last few replies were useful. Thanks onyx for explaining and josh’s grandad I totally agree with you. So I conclude that war matching has changed and the war map is not going to be very helpful to plan base difficulty if engineers are around. (We’ve always gone on the assumption that they’re ordered in that way to the most extent)

    just two last things- how do you know for sure (I’ve read the notes) but do game specialists get extra info that joe public doesn’t?
    And I’m a she (don’t assume everything!)

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by OnyxDS View Post
    The inferno has long been heavily overvalued in gold/map weights. It was arguably overvalued back in 2015. It got increased a lot in the March 2016 disaster.
    Just for reading reference, below is the disaster that Onyx is referring to :-
    https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...rs-Matchmaking

    "Powerful, late-game defenses and troops like Inferno Towers, Eagle Artillery and Grand Warden will have much greater matchmaking impact;"

    "Defensive progress will be playing a much bigger role in Clan Wars matchmaking after the update. Previously, the system placed equal weight between offensive (army) and defensive (village) progress"


    This is essence led to the exponential rise in Offensively lopsided bases. Yes, they existed beforehand, but this was the beginning of the 'cut and paste' engineering era.

    To this day, I still am unable to comprehend the motivations behind these decisions!
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