That’s one nail in the engineering coffin..how about another?

[Noctaire]

That type of war change is inferior to making every base have a minimum defensive weight based on its hall level. A minimum defensive weight based on hall level also has some problems, but it is much better than restricting who can war. As for that th11, remember it weighs as a th7 on defense. You aren’t seeing the offensive weight or the other ways it impacts the match. Also, some, Onyx is one, think the gold reflected in the storages isn’t being used for war matching now anyway.

I do not disagree but SC has been pretty clear that they will not implement a minimum defensive weight based on TH level. We’ve pushed that idea for years now and they’ve given it the cold shoulder. All that matters is that the lopsided bases are prevented from tilting the match-up - minimum base weights, adding weight for undeployed defenses, minimum XPs, not allowing them to war...whatever the solution, they just need to be kept out until they bring a fair game to the battle.

That TH11 that ranked as a high-TH7/Low-TH8 had plenty of offensive weight to throw around, most notably Dragon L5, Balloons L7, Lavahound L2. Add to that they were something like a L11 clan and their CCs all ended up with max level troops. He had a pair of L2 x-bows he’d dropped as well (which proved a bit difficult to take out). His base design was poor, so I still three starred him but it’s where he ranked that is problematic. He was #10 in a roster of all TH8 and lower.

[iBork]

.5 is engineering. There is room for discussion about whether the matchmaker should be changed to allow .5 type engineering within one hall weight but not more lopsided engineering, but it is engineering. A player intentionally not building the strongest defense to help them protect their loot and/or trophy push in multiplayer because they think the defensive weight isn’t good for war is engineering. .5 is engineering.

There is engineering, then there is engineering. Non of which actually has an impact, or in other words, causes you to loose loot because of it. Many believe if you engineer you stand to lose a lot of loot. This is not true. I know, I have 4 engineered accounts. As far as pushing, the engineer does not care about that.

Now back to the topic. Is .5 considered engineering? A better question would be, what kind engineering has an impact in war; What kind of engineering crosses the line into what we call "unfair advantage"? See, most see a base with some missing defense units and cry fowl and demand SC do something about. This falls under the category called Generality.

We have to be more specific if we want to identify what is happening in war matches that is unfair. And I agree 100%, it's unfair. If you are sharp, you will see one common thing that the real "engineered" base has, the one that is causing the unfair advantage: They have max Heroes.

As an example, a TH11 with no Eagle and no infernos is an engineered base. But if that base has 30/40/20 heroes, that base has no impact in the fairness of the war. Zero. Nada. Zilch. Now, if that base has 50/50/20 heroes, that's when it becomes a problem, specially when you see a few of them in war and your clan does not have as much "hero" power as they do.

War match could easily be fixed to avoid such disparity. How hard would it be to assign offensive weight to the heroes and forget about defense weight? Not very hard. But it takes a sharp mind to see what I'm talking about.

[Vikingchief]

There is engineering, then there is engineering. Non of which actually has an impact, or in other words, causes you to loose loot because of it. Many believe if you engineer you stand to lose a lot of loot. This is not true. I know, I have 4 engineered accounts. As far as pushing, the engineer does not care about that.

Now back to the topic. Is .5 considered engineering? A better question would be, what kind engineering has an impact in war; What kind of engineering crosses the line into what we call "unfair advantage"? See, most see a base with some missing defense units and cry fowl and demand SC do something about. This falls under the category called Generality.

We have to be more specific if we want to identify what is happening in war matches that is unfair. And I agree 100%, it's unfair. If you are sharp, you will see one common thing that the real "engineered" base has, the one that is causing the unfair advantage: They have max Heroes.

As an example, a TH11 with no Eagle and no infernos is an engineered base. But if that base has 30/40/20 heroes, that base has no impact in the fairness of the war. Zero. Nada. Zilch. Now, if that base has 50/50/20 heroes, that's when it becomes a problem, specially when you see a few of them in war and your clan does not have as much "hero" power as they do.

War match could easily be fixed to avoid such disparity. How hard would it be to assign offensive weight to the heroes and forget about defense weight? Not very hard. But it takes a sharp mind to see what I'm talking about.

my mind must be very blunt because If your saying not to weight troops or defences and the only weight will be on heroes, the new engineering will be Max defences and Max troops and have week heroes. And these accounts would be fairly easy/cheap to make, and supercell would then discourage hero upgrades which are a huge revenue source.

so to my blunt mine, all this would do is create Heroless engineering, or weak hero engineering, and further from a business perspective is a non starter.

[iBork]

my mind must be very blunt because If your saying not to weight troops or defences and the only weight will be on heroes, the new engineering will be Max defences and Max troops and have week heroes. And these accounts would be fairly easy/cheap to make, and supercell would then discourage hero upgrades which are a huge revenue source.

so to my blunt mine, all this would do is create Heroless engineering, or weak hero engineering, and further from a business perspective is a non starter.

Think about your theory for a moment. When was the last time you attacked a max TH11 with no heroes? Let's even go as far as envision what you are saying. So we have two clans with a mixture of TH's, at the top they are all maxed, except they only have 1/1/1 level heroes. What's gonna happen in that war that is unfair?

I tell you what would be unfair, the defensive side. However, I did not say drop the offensive weight. The mechanics of war hinge upon the hero level + offense. The defensive weight has no value in the computation.

The only way to assign defensive weight would be if the MM assigned a standard defensive weight per TH. That has been discussed many times and SC has shown no interest. Perhaps too hard to code. And now that I have observed the common denominator inside each unfair war we have had, I see that the "standard defensive weight" to the TH solution is not only not necessary, there is a better and much easier one.

Think about it. What good is giving weight to the defense? What does it prevent? It prevents you from being matched with someone with better defense. But... But.... Wait. If your offense is just as good or better than his, why does the defense weight matter? It doesn't.

This is "the why" we get unfair wars. The defensive side is being calculated. So we then have lopsided bases squeezing in to war. The nasty ones all have maxed heroes. Calculate the heroes + offense and war matches are solved.

[Noctaire]

If memory serves, we had offensive weighting as primary once upon a time and it was a disaster as well....

[Vikingchief]

Think about your theory for a moment. When was the last time you attacked a max TH11 with no heroes? Let's even go as far as envision what you are saying. So we have two clans with a mixture of TH's, at the top they are all maxed, except they only have 1/1/1 level heroes. What's gonna happen in that war that is unfair?

I tell you what would be unfair, the defensive side. However, I did not say drop the offensive weight. The mechanics of war hinge upon the hero level + offense. The defensive weight has no value in the computation.

The only way to assign defensive weight would be if the MM assigned a standard defensive weight per TH. That has been discussed many times and SC has shown no interest. Perhaps too hard to code. And now that I have observed the common denominator inside each unfair war we have had, I see that the "standard defensive weight" to the TH solution is not only not necessary, there is a better and much easier one.

Think about it. What good is giving weight to the defense? What does it prevent? It prevents you from being matched with someone with better defense. But... But.... Wait. If your offense is just as good or better than his, why does the defense weight matter? It doesn't.

This is "the why" we get unfair wars. The defensive side is being calculated. So we then have lopsided bases squeezing in to war. The nasty ones all have maxed heroes. Calculate the heroes + offense and war matches are solved.

if you dont have a defence weight, you will have offenceless engineering.

You will also have mismatches where one side has stronger defence, but similar troops and heroes to the other.

the biggest problem is for supercell though, they want the least weight to be on the most diffilcult to upgrade items, defence is easy to upgrade ahead of offence, gold flows in no matter what tou do, elixor less so, dark e If you war even less so.

I dont see how leaving out one of the three key component of base strength (defence-troops-heroes) will lead to more fair wars.

[MajorJohnson]

Think about your theory for a moment. When was the last time you attacked a max TH11 with no heroes? Let's even go as far as envision what you are saying. So we have two clans with a mixture of TH's, at the top they are all maxed, except they only have 1/1/1 level heroes. What's gonna happen in that war that is unfair?

I tell you what would be unfair, the defensive side. However, I did not say drop the offensive weight. The mechanics of war hinge upon the hero level + offense. The defensive weight has no value in the computation.

The only way to assign defensive weight would be if the MM assigned a standard defensive weight per TH. That has been discussed many times and SC has shown no interest. Perhaps too hard to code. And now that I have observed the common denominator inside each unfair war we have had, I see that the "standard defensive weight" to the TH solution is not only not necessary, there is a better and much easier one.

Think about it. What good is giving weight to the defense? What does it prevent? It prevents you from being matched with someone with better defense. But... But.... Wait. If your offense is just as good or better than his, why does the defense weight matter? It doesn't.

This is "the why" we get unfair wars. The defensive side is being calculated. So we then have lopsided bases squeezing in to war. The nasty ones all have maxed heroes. Calculate the heroes + offense and war matches are solved.

I'd be fine with this because we have maxed heroes, or no heroes so in your purposed solution we would still gain the advantage.

But what about defense? Defense matters, and if you think it doesn't then that's "the why" you are getting unfair wars.

Every piece in the puzzle matters.

[2222]

That TH11 that ranked as a high-TH7/Low-TH8 had plenty of offensive weight to throw around, most notably Dragon L5, Balloons L7, Lavahound L2. Add to that they were something like a L11 clan and their CCs all ended up with max level troops. He had a pair of L2 x-bows he’d dropped as well (which proved a bit difficult to take out). His base design was poor, so I still three starred him but it’s where he ranked that is problematic. He was #10 in a roster of all TH8 and lower.

Yep, I was just clarifying that when you say it weighed like a th7 and even now when you say it ranked like a th7, you are talking about defensive weight only. You cannot see based on the map position what the offensive weight was of that base and you also cannot see the other things that were considered by the war matchmaker for that base. Where he “ranked” is only his defensive weight compared to the defensive weight of others in his clan.

[joshsgrandad]

I think that for matching, then all 3 need to be used. I do get it, that the ones with bigger offence, and especially heroes, have the better chance of winning. But that is my opinion for better players, and higher level clans running heavier wars.
Now we move to the lower and mid hall wars, with few or no big bases involved.. At this level, defence is as key as attacking, because due to more inconsistency of the player base, then the need for home base to hold out is necessary. This also links in with the unfairness of the lop siders gaining entry to these wars, as their overpowering attacks take away any chance of "holding out", and requiring the other side to require a higher level of consistency than they would otherwise need to achieve.
I am not for a total extermination of said accounts. I don't feel war could handle the sudden loss of thousands of accounts from the war scene, it would make the search pool too shallow. I think hall weighting can work now, so those heavy off will be disadvantaged, but war exclusion has to be avoided.
Dismissing anything that SC shunned in the past is not current any more. They had a policy whereby people upgraded how they see fit, they u-turned on that. Nothing to say they wont embrace other dismissed ideas now, going forward. It appears to be a fresh start, complicated by involving accounts anything up to 5 years old, but anything is possible now.

[MajorJohnson]

I think that for matching, then all 3 need to be used. I do get it, that the ones with bigger offence, and especially heroes, have the better chance of winning. But that is my opinion for better players, and higher level clans running heavier wars.
Now we move to the lower and mid hall wars, with few or no big bases involved.. At this level, defence is as key as attacking, because due to more inconsistency of the player base, then the need for home base to hold out is necessary. This also links in with the unfairness of the lop siders gaining entry to these wars, as their overpowering attacks take away any chance of "holding out", and requiring the other side to require a higher level of consistency than they would otherwise need to achieve.
I am not for a total extermination of said accounts. I don't feel war could handle the sudden loss of thousands of accounts from the war scene, it would make the search pool too shallow. I think hall weighting can work now, so those heavy off will be disadvantaged, but war exclusion has to be avoided.
Dismissing anything that SC shunned in the past is not current any more. They had a policy whereby people upgraded how they see fit, they u-turned on that. Nothing to say they wont embrace other dismissed ideas now, going forward. It appears to be a fresh start, complicated by involving accounts anything up to 5 years old, but anything is possible now.

Where by I disagree with supercells decision of build before upgrade, i would probably just up and leave the game if they just reversed their decision to implement it.

You can't weight only by town hall, not even by heroes because no one wants 3 eagles and 3 dless max heroes vs 6 max TH12s, you have to assign order.