That’s one nail in the engineering coffin..how about another?

[Tosti111]

Because in their eyes, (keep in mind I used to be that casual), your victory over them was hollow because of the accounts used to achieve it.

I agree, nobody should be held out of war. Regardless of the past build styles. You should be match to others with your play style in mind.

Agreed here as well, no one should be held out of war, ever.

[Noctaire]

You have added a lot of value to the builder base forum. You looked at the game mechanics, the trophy system, and the strength and weakness of troops. You then advocated for moving to BH8 as quickly as possible to get max loot. And max progress. You continually answered the matchmaking in BH is broken by explaining how it worked.

In other words you determined the optimized way to play and then advocated for it. Welcome to what engineers do in the main game. There is another thread talking about dumb....... maybe we can merge them

Yes, but there’s a huge difference - the BB was designed with all of this in mind. The HV/CW was never designed with the foreknowledge of the level of exploits that have evolved over the years. You simply can’t do the same kind of things on the BB because it was designed in such a way as to prevent it. Seeing some of that come over to classic Clash is a good thing.

Engineering made it such that lower level players just couldn’t win at war. It isn’t the “optimized way of playing” - it’s an outright exploitof the matchmaking algorithm designed to achieve an unfair advantage over other players. We don’t need stats or a finger on the pulse to know it - there’s been ample complaints on all of the forums, blogs, and YouTube for years on this one. Plenty of players who were clear why they were no longer going to war. I engineered a couple of defenseless bases a while back - after playing with them a bit, I just felt it was unsportsmanlike and dropped the rest of the defenses.

And it’s not maxers vs the world either - I’m no maxer by ANY stretch of the definition. I’ve been a huge advocate for rushing for my entire time at the game and on the forums, and I will be rushing a couple of my games to TH12 this week at that. Nothing that SC has done or is doing will limit rushing or general gameplay but it will open CWs to a much larger audience and that’s a good thing IMNSHO. Rushing is the optimized way to play the game and that’s why I advocate for it.

Separately...I’ll never understand the angst over losing TH sniping. I get that it was easy loot gain/retention, but this is a tower defense game. What sense does it make to leave the tower in an open, easy attacking position in a tower defense game?

The removal of incentivized sniping and engineering are good moves for the overall health and longevity of the game, opening it to the greatest number of players. I only see good in that.

[Ripple1972]

Yes, but there’s a huge difference - the BB was designed with all of this in mind. The HV/CW was never designed with the foreknowledge of the level of exploits that have evolved over the years. You simply can’t do the same kind of things on the BB because it was designed in such a way as to prevent it. Seeing some of that come over to classic Clash is a good thing.

Engineering made it such that lower level players just couldn’t win at war. It isn’t the “optimized way of playing” - it’s an outright exploitof the matchmaking algorithm designed to achieve an unfair advantage over other players. We don’t need stats or a finger on the pulse to know it - there’s been ample complaints on all of the forums, blogs, and YouTube for years on this one. Plenty of players who were clear why they were no longer going to war. I engineered a couple of defenseless bases a while back - after playing with them a bit, I just felt it was unsportsmanlike and dropped the rest of the defenses.

And it’s not maxers vs the world either - I’m no maxer by ANY stretch of the definition. I’ve been a huge advocate for rushing for my entire time at the game and on the forums, and I will be rushing a couple of my games to TH12 this week at that. Nothing that SC has done or is doing will limit rushing or general gameplay but it will open CWs to a much larger audience and that’s a good thing IMNSHO. Rushing is the optimized way to play the game and that’s why I advocate for it.

Separately...I’ll never understand the angst over losing TH sniping. I get that it was easy loot gain/retention, but this is a tower defense game. What sense does it make to leave the tower in an open, easy attacking position in a tower defense game?

The removal of incentivized sniping and engineering are good moves for the overall health and longevity of the game, opening it to the greatest number of players. I only see good in that.

Engineering is an exploit vs. Engineering is strategy has been argued a couple times previously. You are never going to convince me, I’m never going to convince you. SC has, since the release, said we value play style diversity, and Darian affirmed that recently. This is a change in SC policy. They should, but won’t, come out and say new policy. Their game, their rules, we either adapt or quit.

If they could adjust their mm algorithm to create fair wars for all, while allowing engineered, maxed, rushed to all play I would support it. This is a take the easy way out, simplistic, stupid choice. And a tacit message that they either don’t have the ability or the inclination to fix the game they created.

[Noctaire]

Engineering is an exploit vs. Engineering is strategy has been argued a couple times previously. You are never going to convince me, I’m never going to convince you. SC has, since the release, said we value play style diversity, and Darian affirmed that recently. This is a change in SC policy. They should, but won’t, come out and say new policy. Their game, their rules, we either adapt or quit.

If they could adjust their mm algorithm to create fair wars for all, while allowing engineered, maxed, rushed to all play I would support it. This is a take the easy way out, simplistic, stupid choice. And a tacit message that they either don’t have the ability or the inclination to fix the game they created.

X.5 is a strategy; exploiting the weakness in the matchmaking algorithm is just that...an exploit. Can exploiting the system be a strategy...? Sure; not a very sportsmanlike strategy, but it is a strategy.

I agree - they should definitely adjust the matchmaking algorithm to make it fair for all, but how could they possibly do that when there are games specifically engineered to fool the algorithm into thinking they are a lesser game? The whole point of these engineered games is to "look" like a lower level of TH to the matchmaker. There's no way to adjust the matchmaker that would allow these games to continue to serve their designed purpose.

It's been long suggested that a TH11 be treated as a TH11 - a base weight value for all THs. That is essentially the same thing as the suggestion in this thread to simply add the level 1 weight value for every building from the previous TH level that has not yet been placed on the game grid. Requiring all buildings be placed before upgrading achieves the same, general goal but does not go far enough to correct the existing problem; it's a preventative. I see this as a half-solution - SC not quite fully committing to fixing the problem. Having been here a few years, I wonder if they have the right mathematical minds on staff to build their matchmaker model; it never has seemed like it, and maybe that's the problem. I'd imagine it's also a matter of priorities - SC clearly caters to the top level crowd, both on the HV and the BB side of the game. That's likely where they get the bulk of their revenues and where I would expect any business to focus its attention. Engineering really isn't an issue for those players as they're already max to near-max anyway.

The REALLY easy way out would be to simply make Clan Wars only available to TH10 and up (or TH11 and up, now). That would eliminate all the associated problems altogether....

[Bigdome757]

X.5 is a strategy; exploiting the weakness in the matchmaking algorithm is just that...an exploit. Can exploiting the system be a strategy...? Sure; not a very sportsmanlike strategy, but it is a strategy.

I agree - they should definitely adjust the matchmaking algorithm to make it fair for all, but how could they possibly do that when there are games specifically engineered to fool the algorithm into thinking they are a lesser game? The whole point of these engineered games is to "look" like a lower level of TH to the matchmaker. There's no way to adjust the matchmaker that would allow these games to continue to serve their designed purpose.

It's been long suggested that a TH11 be treated as a TH11 - a base weight value for all THs. That is essentially the same thing as the suggestion in this thread to simply add the level 1 weight value for every building from the previous TH level that has not yet been placed on the game grid. Requiring all buildings be placed before upgrading achieves the same, general goal but does not go far enough to correct the existing problem; it's a preventative. I see this as a half-solution - SC not quite fully committing to fixing the problem. Having been here a few years, I wonder if they have the right mathematical minds on staff to build their matchmaker model; it never has seemed like it, and maybe that's the problem. I'd imagine it's also a matter of priorities - SC clearly caters to the top level crowd, both on the HV and the BB side of the game. That's likely where they get the bulk of their revenues and where I would expect any business to focus its attention. Engineering really isn't an issue for those players as they're already max to near-max anyway.

The REALLY easy way out would be to simply make Clan Wars only available to TH10 and up (or TH11 and up, now). That would eliminate all the associated problems altogether....

Surely you don’t mean your last paragraph? Yes it would eliminate a lot of problems associated with engineering but it would also eliminate a large chunk of the player base when they are told that they can no longer war.

[Ripple1972]

X.5 is a strategy; exploiting the weakness in the matchmaking algorithm is just that...an exploit. Can exploiting the system be a strategy...? Sure; not a very sportsmanlike strategy, but it is a strategy.

I agree - they should definitely adjust the matchmaking algorithm to make it fair for all, but how could they possibly do that when there are games specifically engineered to fool the algorithm into thinking they are a lesser game? The whole point of these engineered games is to "look" like a lower level of TH to the matchmaker. There's no way to adjust the matchmaker that would allow these games to continue to serve their designed purpose.

It's been long suggested that a TH11 be treated as a TH11 - a base weight value for all THs. That is essentially the same thing as the suggestion in this thread to simply add the level 1 weight value for every building from the previous TH level that has not yet been placed on the game grid. Requiring all buildings be placed before upgrading achieves the same, general goal but does not go far enough to correct the existing problem; it's a preventative. I see this as a half-solution - SC not quite fully committing to fixing the problem. Having been here a few years, I wonder if they have the right mathematical minds on staff to build their matchmaker model; it never has seemed like it, and maybe that's the problem. I'd imagine it's also a matter of priorities - SC clearly caters to the top level crowd, both on the HV and the BB side of the game. That's likely where they get the bulk of their revenues and where I would expect any business to focus its attention. Engineering really isn't an issue for those players as they're already max to near-max anyway.

The REALLY easy way out would be to simply make Clan Wars only available to TH10 and up (or TH11 and up, now). That would eliminate all the associated problems altogether....

x.5 is a strategy.... but not engineering.

Tank, if you’re reading. Where do we draw the line?

pure awesome.

[Noctaire]

Surely you don’t mean your last paragraph? Yes it would eliminate a lot of problems associated with engineering but it would also eliminate a large chunk of the player base when they are told that they can no longer war.

I'm not suggesting it be done, but it would certainly eliminate the problem. What's the point of warring before, say, TH7? TH8 is the first time there are any true, hybrid attack strategies; TH7 is just about Dragons and even moving the third AD to TH7 (and a second to TH6) didn't make any real difference to that. I would not be terribly happy about such a change either - I happen to really enjoy my Dragon attacks....

x.5 is a strategy.... but not engineering.

Tank, if you’re reading. Where do we draw the line?

pure awesome.

Yes; X.5 is a strategy. It's an annoying strategy, but at least it makes sense - don't place the new, high weighted defenses until you're ready to defend/attack others who have the same/similar makeup. Personally, I'd like to see that gone as well but I recognize it as a valid strategy, even if I don't particularly care for it. Considering we have 2 attacks and most such matches have a mix that includes higher level THs anyway, it never has had much impact on the fairness of a match.

An exploit is anything designed to take advantage of an inherent flaw in a system. In this case, the flaw is with the matchmaker's inability to recognize a TH's overall capabilities by level. This flaw came about through the organic growth of the game - engineering wasn't really a thing back when CWs first came on the scene. Players rushed, some did the X.5, but we didn't see so many defenseless/near-defenseless games or CW rosters that were carefully engineered to draw in weaker opponents. Like TH sniping, I doubt SC ever imagined such a scenario. Since returning to CW 6 months ago, I can honestly say I do not recall participating in even a single match where there weren't heavily engineered games included in the opponents' rosters. It's become an every day part of the game.

Fixing the matchmaker would be ideal - a far better solution than the one that is being put in place. But what would be a "fair" fix other than somehow rating THs on their overall capabilities and strength which, as I mentioned, would simply defeat the entire purpose of having engineered games in the first place...?

I have no problem with someone wanting to create a defenseless, near defenseless, or otherwise unique game. Just so long as they don't get it into CW and look like something they're not. Ranking a near-defenseless TH11 with multiple, max-level troops below maxed TH7s and early TH8s is flat wrong. You should not be able to game the matchmaker to draw heavily favorable matches - that's about as unfair as it gets.

[BoBoTheGoat]

x.5 is a strategy.... but not engineering.

Tank, if you’re reading. Where do we draw the line?

pure awesome.

I got criticized worse than Cosby for having a .5, back around xmas time.

Also th8s is the new sandbag apparently.

[Ripple1972]

I'm not suggesting it be done, but it would certainly eliminate the problem. What's the point of warring before, say, TH7? TH8 is the first time there are any true, hybrid attack strategies; TH7 is just about Dragons and even moving the third AD to TH7 (and a second to TH6) didn't make any real difference to that. I would not be terribly happy about such a change either - I happen to really enjoy my Dragon attacks....



Yes; X.5 is a strategy. It's an annoying strategy, but at least it makes sense - don't place the new, high weighted defenses until you're ready to defend/attack others who have the same/similar makeup. Personally, I'd like to see that gone as well but I recognize it as a valid strategy, even if I don't particularly care for it. Considering we have 2 attacks and most such matches have a mix that includes higher level THs anyway, it never has had much impact on the fairness of a match.

An exploit is anything designed to take advantage of an inherent flaw in a system. In this case, the flaw is with the matchmaker's inability to recognize a TH's overall capabilities by level. This flaw came about through the organic growth of the game - engineering wasn't really a thing back when CWs first came on the scene. Players rushed, some did the X.5, but we didn't see so many defenseless/near-defenseless games or CW rosters that were carefully engineered to draw in weaker opponents. Like TH sniping, I doubt SC ever imagined such a scenario. Since returning to CW 6 months ago, I can honestly say I do not recall participating in even a single match where there weren't heavily engineered games included in the opponents' rosters. It's become an every day part of the game.

Fixing the matchmaker would be ideal - a far better solution than the one that is being put in place. But what would be a "fair" fix other than somehow rating THs on their overall capabilities and strength which, as I mentioned, would simply defeat the entire purpose of having engineered games in the first place...?

I have no problem with someone wanting to create a defenseless, near defenseless, or otherwise unique game. Just so long as they don't get it into CW and look like something they're not. Ranking a near-defenseless TH11 with multiple, max-level troops below maxed TH7s and early TH8s is flat wrong. You should not be able to game the matchmaker to draw heavily favorable matches - that's about as unfair as it gets.

If you believe .5 is strategy but not engineering I will bow out of this discussion.

[Piper139]

x.5 is a strategy.... but not engineering.

Tank, if you’re reading. Where do we draw the line?

pure awesome.

And therein lies the real question. What separates strategy from being an exploit. Absent arranged matches with cookie cutter maxed bases, there is no such thing as a perfectly even match. Another facet is that the clan war structure itself emphasizes offense over defense. It makes sense to sacrifice so defense capability and have higher attack capability. I can attack twice to gain up to 6 stars. I can only lose 3. As long as that disparity exists, there will always be a strategy or exploit to emphasize attack to a certain degree. I think they've addressed .5s pretty well. Or we're all doing it so there are a lot making it easier to match. The .11s are the ones that give us fits. We can smash them consistently with our heavy 10s but we have a very difficult time defending the extra high 11 attacks. With that said, there is a lot of difference between a good 9.11 and a th9 with baby king, queen and warden. The good ones though, just roll over our 10s. That's where it feels like it crosses the line to exploit to me. It creates an imbalance that is also impossible to overcome. I am also fully aware that it's very much a what I do is strategy, what you do is an exploit type of thing. If I'm honest, my clan is exploiting the matchmaker heavily with our several .5 bases. The fact they we intend to max them doesn't change that.