Just when I'd thought we'd put this thread to bed!Originally Posted by groteoliebol
Okay, so where, exactly, are these "easy" match-ups? If a higher level BH is operating at a lower trophy range, the chances are: a, the are hopeless attackers; b, they have a poor base that's easily rolled; or, c both.
BB, as it stands, is a meritocracy; if you're good enough you'll progress. If you refuse, or fail to grasp, for whatever reason, that it's not the same as HV you will struggle.
But an equal BH battle in no way means that the bases are a fair match for each other! A maxed out BH6 and a recently upgraded to BH7 but not maxed at BH6 (especially if no new camps built yet) are a pretty fair match, unlike a new base at any level which hasn't built the new goodies and one which has not only built but maxed them. Yet you seem to be saying that is a great example of a desirable match, why?
I get plenty of intense battles as it is. We usually have about the same number of trophies, and if anything, the ones where the BH levels are not identical are sometimes more intense.Making these changes will get the following done:
A) more intense matches: if people with the same BH level and a near equal amount of trophies fight, there will most likely be a lot of intense battles, which is more fun, and allows people to appreciate there victories way more.(say for yourself, if you win with a 2star 60% against a 2star 57% that feels way cooler than beatinf a 29% 0star)
Why does rushing have to be punished? It's a strategy game, and the order and manner in which you upgrade your stuff is an opportunity to play the game differently than everyone else. If you don't like that, play a game where everyone has exactly the same stuff: presto, now all matches are 100% fair, and entirely based on skill. No need to slog through the endless grind to a max base, you get straight to work on reaching the top of the leader board.B) rushing finally can be punished: rushing(for those who don’t know: upgrading your builder hall before maxing your stuff) is not a good thing in clash of clans, but it goes relatively unpunished in builder base. The changes listed above will change that (since a BH6 with BH4 stuff will now usually encounter at the very least a BH5, more than likely with at least BH4 stuff), so that BH6 will finally have some issues due to him rushing his builder hall. Promoting maxing out before upgrading your builder hall, although not a main idea, is definitely a positive side effect.
In my experience, if you "rush" too much (and here I mean advance your offense without building and upgrading all of the defenses), you may win for a while, then you get to a trophy range where you start matching up with people with similar offensive capabilities and better defenses. Surprise, surprise, you're going to stop winning most of the time.
And here's the ugly truth, as I see it: the thing that frustrates a lot of people is the PvP underpinnings of the game, because most of the matches are going to have a loser, no matter how you do the matchmaking, and a lot of people just ARE NOT GOOD so they end up losing a lot. They don't understand why they lose (it's because they are not good players) and so they look and see that the player who beat them appears to have some advantage. I would not dream of claiming that I am a good attacker in this game; but the number of times I beat players with better bases and equal or better troops suggests I am far from the worst. I'm too lazy to do much more than watch a few videos now and then and get in my daily attacks, and I understand this puts an upper bound on how far I will progress. That's okay, I'm just playing to have fun, and that's exactly the result obtained. It helps that I understand and accept that for the amount of time, effort, and money I am willing to put into this game, I'm going to end up right in the middle of the pack. This isn't like the main game where if you are willing to hit the Next button enough times you can push a TH8 up to titan league or be the guy who gets to 5,000 trophies with only goblin armies. Here you have to fight all the battles, not just the ones you choose. That means losing is a fact of life.
“You seem to be saying that is a great example of a desirable match, why?”
I am not saying this is a perfect example. I am saying that the intensity of mismatches will be mitigated, meaning you will sometimes get slight mismatches and drop a bit in trophies, but you won’t get the giant mismatch that will make you say “what in the name of deep-fried butter are you doing in this trophy range?”. Obviously you can’t beat the mismatches out of the game completely, I see that too. All I’m saying is that by dividing players into some kind of base categories(I know I worded this very poorly in my previous post, and decided on just going for BH level just to be done with it, but maybe some kind of more fime-tuned way exists, like “half-BH levels” or base point categories) it might be possible to give above average players a little fairer feeling in their battles.
“I have plenty of intense battles as it is”.
Maybe this part is just some small sample size on my end, where I felt like I had a lot of either really impossible or really easy battles, either due to me being a moron in my attacks or my opponent being one. Also, I looked up my last 5 battles and 3 of them were with an equal number of stars, so I guess I was wrong about this being a real issue, so I’ll give you that one. However, I still rest my case that if you are fighting a BH level or 2 up(non-rushed, otherwise you’d be right), it makes the game feel really unfair at times, and it just creates a stomp where a match should have been.
Why does rushing have to be punished?
To be completely honest with you, I was a little tilted when I made this post and I just needed a third argument to make my post sound a little more convincing, and I decided on just ranting about whatever I could find that I didn’t like, so really, this part was just me blowing off some steam
I hope that this will clear up some things my previous post didn’t clarify or didn’t clarify all too well.
PS: I don’t know how to create separate quotes, could you please share some of your wisdom with a weaker mind?
Last edited by groteoliebol; May 28th, 2018 at 12:58 AM.
This goes back to the same thing from earlier--weight- or BH-based matching destroys the ability for all players to have a 50/50 win ratio regardless of their skill level on offense and defense. If those facing BH(n+1)s now suddenly only have to face BH(n)s, they're going to win more than 50% of the time. Similarly, players facing BH(n-1)s are only able to face BH(n)s, and will lose more than 50% of the time, and I think we can all agree that that would suck.
The matchmaking system as it currently exists allows for the most consistent progression for all players by moving all players to regions with those that they can maintain a roughly 50/50 win ratio. If anyone has a ratio significantly different than 50/50 (which I have no reason to believe to be true), then the system is broken, because that should be impossible (and would result in dropping or gaining trophies forever, which very obviously doesn't happen).
Last edited by themariofan; May 28th, 2018 at 12:23 AM.
You are right these changes would indeed shake up the winrates for some players, but that isn’t as bad as you may think it to be.
First off, people that are bad enough they need a weight advantage to win should start learning how to attack. It’s this simple: people with bricks for brains get trashed, people with brains for brains get trophies. Done. If that means some people will drop a bunch of trophies until they accept they are bad at the game and need to improve, so be it. That would be good for smart players, because they get more balanced matchups, as well as for dumb players, since they will now be able to enjoy the game way more and have balanced fights, and on top of that, they will have gained some new tricks too, creating more in-depth exploration of the BB possibilities in all stages of the game. If people who are truly hurt by this because they are currently sitting in a trophy range too low for them can’t accept they are bad at the game it should be their problem and not someone else’s. It may sound harsh, but if we let the good players take the cr*p for the bad players’ stupidity, that is straight-up trophy communism: steal from the rich and give to the poor.
As for players getting a permanent >50% winrate, I have already stated in my first post that there would be a trophy limit per BH level(or per base weight category or whatever) so players can neither gain trophies permanently nor stay in a weight-class they are good at attacking in just to get infinite amounts of trophies. If players that have hit the cap win a battle, the losing player is just lucky. This way, advancing is still required to get to new heights trophy-wise, but just in a different way than you may think.
Last edited by groteoliebol; May 28th, 2018 at 12:48 AM.
@ groteoliebol,
You certainly argue your points well. However, your case is based on the fallacy that mismatches occur in the first place; they simply don't.
The current system is entirely self regulating. Any attempt to alter it based upon BH level will create more problems than it "solves". If match-ups were based, entirely or in part, on BH level some would end up very high in their respective brackets. They would subsequently suffer from massive loot overflows; leading to a whole new world of frustration.
I the past hour or so, I've just grabbed the loot on both my accounts. On my main it took 10 attacks, apart from one stinker, 57% 2*, all were 82% or better, 6 were 100% & 4 of them were draws. That tells me that account is right where it should be.
My mini is a different story entirely. If I'd been on the ball, I'd have moved up to BH7 before the battlefest began. I didn't & now I don't want to tie up the MB for 4 days whilst there's so much loot available. That account is almost as likely to see a BH8 as it is another BH6. But, again, its in the trophy range it should be. A good cycle; 3 wins from 3 or 4 puts it too high & I get pushed down again. One of those, all too familiar, losing streaks puts it too low & I rise again.
---
We all like to win, we wouldn't play if we didn't. I'm afraid some people just can't seem to accept the win:loss ratio of, or near to, 50:50. When they do understand that's how it is & how it's meant to be, the game becomes a little less frustrating.
I will concede though, that when my mini comes up against a BH8, that I wish there was a +/-1 cap; unless I win, of course! 😀
@Kaledonian
I am definitely not the only one who has been arguing very well thus far, and I would like to thank you for your remark, as well as take this opportunity to elaborate on some of your points.
first off, you state that there are no mismatches. This depends on your definition of “mismatch”.
When I speak of a mismatch I mean a match in which one player has a building/level advantage over the other person in any way, because that creates a matchup where one player will have to display more skill than the other one to win the battle, both in basebuilding as well as in attacking. If both players the same amount of skill, a match should always end(close to) a draw, but when my definition of a mismatch occurs, that will not be the case.
Now you might add a skill meter in your definition of “mismatch”, and in this scenario, you might account for a skill difference that makes a fight fair and balanced again. The problem that occurs here is that this may not sit comfortable with many people. If a game or company tells you that you are obligated to fight on a harder difficulty than someone else, based on the fact you are good, that becomes a bad thing. Say we compare BB to another very old 2-player game: chess. Now if I, a player who just plays casually but isn’t good at all(rating around 1000) get to play against a more competitive player with some thing being on the line and it not being a game played merely for fun, I also don’t get to start off with an extra bishop because otherwise the odds will be tilted in his favor. That would negate the fact that my opponent is just better at the game than I am, and give me an edge I don’t deserve, to counteract the edge he does deserve. This is also how builder base should work: without giving edges to people that don’t deserve it just for the sake to counteract the edge people that do deserve it have.
As for your overflowing loot issue: the upgrading times are very low for CoC and if people honestly have a problem storing their loot one of 2 things is happening:
1. They have maxed out storages. If they do, that means something is going very right. They will be advancing quickly and having a very good time because of that.
2. They do not have maxed out storages. If this is the case, no one should ever complain about this as the solution is right within their grasp. If that still doesn’t solve the problem, that rolls right back to 1., where it isn’t an issue, but a blessing to have that many resources, espacially since they can’t even get raided(which is the biggest issue in HV with having high amounts of resources you can’t spend).
Another thing I have to say about this issue is that, apart from the very first BH levels(here the upgrading times are so low that this loot issue shouldn’t really come into play at all anyway) and lowish trophy counts, the loot bonuses increase by about 15-20K per day every 200 trophies. That means that, if people truly manage to climb up around 400 trophies they still won’t see huge piles of loot, just enough more to notice it.
And last, I have another thing about this subject: there have been multiple battlefest events since the builder base was first released, which straight up tripled one’s potential loot(given that people probably have not been able to pick up every piece of loot they can get, I’ll call it a 150% increase from now on just to remain realistic), and this never had people complaining about too much loot on the forums, and given that information, I do not suspect people getting really frustrated with having “massive loot overflows”.
I am happy people tell me all this, please keep going. You are pointing out important parts of this possible new feature that are necessary to check off before putting it through.
Last edited by groteoliebol; May 29th, 2018 at 03:30 PM.
@ groteoliebol
I really have nothing to add. I've just re-read the entire thread & we just seem to be going around in circles to no avail.
If you haven't been convinced by now that the MM is working, given what has already been stated here. I doubt I can make a difference with further comment.
Except the fact that Chess is not related to progress. I mean, the more you play the Chess, the more pawns pieces you will get, or maybe your Queen in the Chess will have some special abilities just because you spend more time and money on the game. No, it doesn't work that way. Chess is simply different with Builder Base, and you have also pointed out with your additional Bishop example. And I agree that this would negate the fact that someone is better at the game, or more skillful.
But for Clash of Clans, everything is related to progress (contrary to Chess). No matter how you change the matchmaking system, there will always be unfair battles. You will need both progress and skills to excel in this game, it can't be skills alone. Especially for someone that doesn't spend money or spend real time to progress everyday, no matter how skillful he is, he is going to lose. That's how it is for this game.
@SilverX
You are correct that, unlike in chess, there is progression involved in climbing the ranks of builder base. However, that will still apply even after the changes I suggested. Here’s how:
if a player is in a certain BH level, or weight class or whatever, he will have a trophy cap, meaning he can’t go above a certain amount of trophies. That way, they can enjoy builder battles, getting their loot fast, AND having fair matches, and on top of that, a permanent >50% winrate without breaking the game. The only thing he will not have, is the gain of trophies(hence not breaking the game). If he gets into a new weight class or BH level(haven’t worked the numbers on this part out completely, but that doesn’t matter right now), his cap will be removed, he will get slightly unfair fights, but not ones that will be completely unwinnable. Yes, this player may get sent back a little bit, but once he gets his upgrades done, he will climb up again, and depending on his skill, he can get a lot higher than his base would allow him in the current system, but he would still have to upgrade his stuff to progress. As well, because this is dependent on skill and less on level, we will see people trying a lot harder to get good at the game. It’s the best of both worlds!
