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Thread: Not Engineering? Wars are a waste of time.

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by iGroot View Post
    Your 0.5 bases are probably hurting and your spread. Across the board, matchmaking has improved. There are instances where clans like yours are still struggling. I believe you have a right to be upset. Supercell has not stated whether 0.5 bases are being penalized by the matchmaking system and it feels wholly irresponsible that they don't communicate with us on that front.

    I feel your pain and hope things go in a better direction sooner than later.
    .5 bases seemed to be the first hit for some absurd reason. As far as I know, the engineering debate didn't revolve around a new TH9 with under 20 combined levels of Heroes. Only a tiny amount of people complained about it. Almost always engineers running a straw man argument.

    Oh, so you have a level 10 Queen with no bows? Okay.

    You have a level 25+ Queen or something like that but still don't have bows?

    Come on people, we don't need arbitrary numbers for this, just some sense.

    Ask yourself, what level must one be to have Bowlers and a Warden? Well.... Must be at least a TH10 for the Bowlers right? Couldn't possibly be a TH8 regardless of defense. Warden?! Must be a TH11 since one must be a TH11 to have a Warden.

    35 CC space. Not a TH6 or 7 or 8 or 9. 260 camp capacity? Probably not a TH8.

    Spell limits? Same concept. No king but a queen? Yep. At least a TH9.

    Why is this so confounding?
    Last edited by Nuitari; April 11th, 2018 at 07:40 AM.

  2. #12
    Senior Member LordSk's Avatar
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    However I do not agree war is a waste of time without engineering, I do agree with the flaw in matchmaking. However most of our wars are fair matches, we do encounter engineered TH11 bases that match with TH10 or even TH9. Which basically means the opponent has a big advantage, even if the engineered th11 bases can easily been taken by a th9 or 10: They do have extra attempts on the top bases, and that is where wars are decided.

    My suggestion in the past has been to ALWAYS match the townhall levels, before weighting in offense and defense. Or at least, for the TH11 bases.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordSk View Post
    However I do not agree war is a waste of time without engineering, I do agree with the flaw in matchmaking. However most of our wars are fair matches, we do encounter engineered TH11 bases that match with TH10 or even TH9. Which basically means the opponent has a big advantage, even if the engineered th11 bases can easily been taken by a th9 or 10: They do have extra attempts on the top bases, and that is where wars are decided.

    My suggestion in the past has been to ALWAYS match the townhall levels, before weighting in offense and defense. Or at least, for the TH11 bases.
    That seems like a reasonable approach if done correctly. I don't claim to have the "correct" answer. I just wish we had an OFFICIAL answer personally. Seems like this has been being "corrected" for couple years now. Just an opinion and nothing more.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by JONSNO View Post
    Matchmaking is quite stable than it was before few months. If your lineup hasn't engineered account, it is very rare that matchmaking draws engineers against you.
    I am not saying it is 100% working, but in past few months we just matched up against engineered clan just once. And this was quite good, because before that we got engineered clan after every 2 or 3 wars.
    If you are constantly matching against engineered clan, that would be because of .5 bases in your lineup as .5 bases are counted as engineered accounts and they will draw the same as your enemy.
    That's why in my clan we removed all .5 bases and it's going quite smooth right now.
    Sadly not true in my experience, yes you reduce your chances of meeting engineered by running no engineered yourself, no you don't avoid them or even make engineering matches rare. Recently it seems to have gotten worse for us. War after war we have engineering matches yet run maxed bases, no 0.5, all defences placed, balanced as best we know ... what I would say is it seems they are fair as often war is close enough and decided on attacking skill albeit we have to 3 star our own TH level while they dip, dip and double dip except for TH11s ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by cocloon View Post
    We run zero 0.5 bases, zero engineered bases, and we don't even run new bases (just got to TH10/11 etc), and we never run more than a 3 TH spread. Yet we constantly match engineered clans,...
    But why not run new bases? Because you think max bases are an advantage?
    It's probably hurting you. A spread of bases is the easiest thing for SC to match.

    Quote Originally Posted by whp4 View Post
    Oh, that’s what will happen, all right! Instead of seeing bases with maxed offense and light defense, you’ll see bases with maxed defense and light offense. You’ll get a base with TH8 offense and TH11 defense to attack with your TH8 offense (because you are matching by offensive strength, as you suggest). How many stars do you expect you’ll be getting? In the mean time, that TH8 offense will be attacking your TH8 defense, probably for 3 stars.
    Quote Originally Posted by BentleyJ View Post
    If TH8 king and queen and troops (which means basically no Royals) then a TH11 probably couldn't 2 star a TH9? I don't necessarily agree with you but I will accept that as a valid point and I would be curious to actually see how that would play out.
    What whp4 suggests is probably already the better way to engineer. The system seems to focus on offence a lot. Clans with TH11s lurking down the list are ones you should probably be beating already. I'm a lot more worried if the opponent has been messing around with their defence upgrades.

    Quote Originally Posted by LordSk View Post
    we do encounter engineered TH11 bases that match with TH10 or even TH9. Which basically means the opponent has a big advantage, even if the engineered th11 bases can easily been taken by a th9 or 10: They do have extra attempts on the top bases, and that is where wars are decided.
    But do they really match the TH9? Do you not have an advantage elsewhere, perhaps in hero levels?
    In our last war IIRC we had 3 TH8s at the bottom "matching" 2 TH11s and a TH10. Problem? No - we had low TH10s opposite the enemy's top TH9s; and low TH11s opposite their top max TH10s. Overall they had slightly more TH11 attacks, but ours had better heroes (all or almost all ours upgraded to TH11 with 40/40, whereas their engineered 11s had heroes in the 20s or 30s).
    It's hard to say whether the match was exactly fair - they were a tryout clan for a league clan that had stuffed these engineers on the bottom, so a lot of 30/30 TH9s and very big TH10s whereas our guys upgrade the TH rather than permabase. The match looked kind of tough to us when it matched, but we won by 9*, so it can't have been that bad. It was certainly the case that those engineered accounts didn't give the enemy a free lunch

    You have any suggestions of your own for improving matchmaking?
    I think SC would do themselves a big favour just changing the presentation. If it showed bases in descending offence order in the clan attack list it would be much more visible that offence had mattered, and people wouldn't think the TH11 matched to a TH8.
    It also looks like the defence order on the map is not the same defence order used when matching. The gold values have always been an awful representation of defence strength, and it smells like SC have replaced them entirely for matching purposes, but left the gold unchanged (more or less as a decoy). Again the problem is it makes it LOOK like engineered bases are getting results. Manicured bases appear low on the defence list, so look like an advantage. If you compare their opponent probably has more stuff up top, and the MM isn't anything like as daft as it seems. But... seeming daft is part of the problem now.
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  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by OnyxDS View Post
    But why not run new bases? Because you think max bases are an advantage?
    It's probably hurting you. A spread of bases is the easiest thing for SC to match.
    We did it exactly because in many months of doing 10vs10 in a feeder clan using all spreads of bases (Th10-11 only) the matches were much, much worse. Every time we used our newer TH11 ranging from 102k-105k in our mix we almost always matched opponents with all 108k+ TH11 plus engineers lower (typically 9.11 with beefy everything) so it was a double hit. This was not just a random one or two off occurence either, this was virtually every war for months. We stopped doing it.

    A few old mates of mine are currently doing 5vs5 between the two of them and their TH11 accounts. 109k max anchor, 107k, 105k, 105k, 103k. All in various developing stages of TH11 from just got GW to lv5, to fully max... Three wars in a row now they are outmatched on both hero levels, and 5-6k in weight each war. Or, opponents have a TH9-10 filler on the bottom, yet 3-4 completely max TH11. They have had a few in their favor as well, but mostly their matches are terrible. 3* a TH11 in the 102-105k region is pretty darn easy, yet those 108-109k are much, much harder. So when you are disadvantaged every war that way it makes it an easy choice to just stop giving the MM the option.

    So from mine, and my friends many years of war experience in 4-5 clans I strongly disagree that the spread makes it better, or easier to match. Or at least it rarely ever did/does for us.
    Last edited by cocloon; April 11th, 2018 at 09:54 AM.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beachdude67 View Post
    So we are currently matched against some clan taking massive liberties with war weighting on bases. The other clan has managed to get 2 town hall 11 bases to count as either low th10 or th9 by simply not having inferno towers or an eagle artillery. The walls are almost max, as well as most of the defenses. Heroes are in the upper 30s. And the bases are far enough down that either our th9s have to try and deal with them or the th11s have to dip well below normal to try and clear them.

    This kind of nonsense has gone on for way too long. Everyone (except the engineers) has complained and nothing at all has been done.

    At a minimum, bases should be allowed to tinker with their own war weights by being allowed to omit defensive buildings in their war base setup. I purchased and upgraded my inferno towers when they actually blocked healing effects and actually had a significant impact on defense. Now? Not so much. But I am forced to include the towers or I am told that my base can't be used.

    I'm really thinking that wars are broken as they are, right now.
    You’re in the same boat as our clan.

    Constantly outgunned by mainly roster engineering with odd engineered clan. As soon as you see the war match-up after search you know you’ve lost.

    GB

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by nobeone View Post
    Sadly not true in my experience, yes you reduce your chances of meeting engineered by running no engineered yourself, no you don't avoid them or even make engineering matches rare. Recently it seems to have gotten worse for us. War after war we have engineering matches yet run maxed bases, no 0.5, all defences placed, balanced as best we know ... what I would say is it seems they are fair as often war is close enough and decided on attacking skill albeit we have to 3 star our own TH level while they dip, dip and double dip except for TH11s ...
    I've already mentioned that current system is not 100% perfect,but it surely is better than previous.
    Yeah, we got matched against engineered clans but it is not that often.
    And Darian already mentioned new matchmaking system is under development and with this system engineered accounts will be getting some major disadvantage. So better just wait for next system to be implemented.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by BentleyJ View Post
    If TH8 king and queen and troops (which means basically no Royals) then a TH11 probably couldn't 2 star a TH9? I don't necessarily agree with you but I will accept that as a valid point and I would be curious to actually see how that would play out. You have any suggestions of your own for improving matchmaking?
    Quote Originally Posted by Beachdude67 View Post
    So we are currently matched against some clan taking massive liberties with war weighting on bases. The other clan has managed to get 2 town hall 11 bases to count as either low th10 or th9 by simply not having inferno towers or an eagle artillery. The walls are almost max, as well as most of the defenses. Heroes are in the upper 30s. And the bases are far enough down that either our th9s have to try and deal with them or the th11s have to dip well below normal to try and clear them.

    This kind of nonsense has gone on for way too long. Everyone (except the engineers) has complained and nothing at all has been done.

    At a minimum, bases should be allowed to tinker with their own war weights by being allowed to omit defensive buildings in their war base setup. I purchased and upgraded my inferno towers when they actually blocked healing effects and actually had a significant impact on defense. Now? Not so much. But I am forced to include the towers or I am told that my base can't be used.

    I'm really thinking that wars are broken as they are, right now.
    I have the same problem with my main. I have level 3 IT, and they don't fully represent the weight they carry. Its a bummer, but is how it is. I don't agree that just because I have them (unfortunately), that everybody else should be forced to have them. I made my choice, I deal with the consequences.
    My choice was to bench my main, for now, until it can perform as an 11. In the meantime, it makes a good feeder.
    As for their 11s, it makes no difference, in my opinion, where they sit on the map. If it takes an 11 to clear it, then an 11 hits it. How can you say an 11 has to dip well below normal, when it is hitting same hall colour?. I get what you mean, but disagree with your logic. You have wrote 3 paragraphs, detailing how unfair 2 low riders are in your war, yet you haven't mentioned your own line up. Is it a mismatch, or do the numbers add up ok, if you do a full break down of your roster.
    If you simply get hung up on engi bases sneaking into wars, then the road ahead is pretty bleak unfortunately, as they aren't going away just yet.
    I believe the weights included in the roster dictate how likely drawing engi will be, as much as the balancing, with the latest model of MM. So stepping into the heavier world, as TH11 numbers slowly increase, will offer a much wider weight scope for abnormal matching, until the clan outgrows them. We, as a clan, have so far resisted the temptation to step up to the big boy and girl level, due to exactly this problem.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by BentleyJ View Post
    If TH8 king and queen and troops (which means basically no Royals) then a TH11 probably couldn't 2 star a TH9? I don't necessarily agree with you but I will accept that as a valid point and I would be curious to actually see how that would play out. You have any suggestions of your own for improving matchmaking?
    My opinion on this.. Reverse engineering would become as bad as the engineers we have now. Consider that engineering is optimising. Then the most optimised set up would include max defence, as it would carry zero weight. But the real difficulty, so far as war goes, wouldn't be with individual accounts, it would be strategic optimising clan wide, whereby the max defences would enable the hitters to outscore the opposition, using only optimised troops. Take it a step further. Imagine potion engineers with free defence, and level 1 troops

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuitari View Post
    .5 bases seemed to be the first hit for some absurd reason. As far as I know, the engineering debate didn't revolve around a new TH9 with under 20 combined levels of Heroes. Only a tiny amount of people complained about it. Almost always engineers running a straw man argument.

    Oh, so you have a level 10 Queen with no bows? Okay.

    You have a level 25+ Queen or something like that but still don't have bows?

    Come on people, we don't need arbitrary numbers for this, just some sense.

    Ask yourself, what level must one be to have Bowlers and a Warden? Well.... Must be at least a TH10 for the Bowlers right? Couldn't possibly be a TH8 regardless of defense. Warden?! Must be a TH11 since one must be a TH11 to have a Warden.

    35 CC space. Not a TH6 or 7 or 8 or 9. 260 camp capacity? Probably not a TH8.

    Spell limits? Same concept. No king but a queen? Yep. At least a TH9.

    Why is this so confounding?
    You confounded me mate.. What is it?.
    BTW.. I think its difficult to establish .5 bases as first type hit. For starters, we haven't actually established exactly what a .5 is.. How lop sided are you talking?.. And I feel its the severely lop sided bases that are feeling most pain ( and the maxers that insist on absolute maxing).
    Last edited by joshsgrandad; April 11th, 2018 at 12:05 PM.

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