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  Click here to go to the first staff post in this thread.   Thread: Cloud Control - All About Clouds and Our Proposed Solutions

  1.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #41
    Darian[Supercell]'s Avatar
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    Just poking my head in here to say I'm keeping an eye on this excellent discussion. Thank you Tiler for eloquently organizing most of the proposed solutions with the pros and cons to them.

    The clouding issue is THE most difficult problem for us to solve. We've seen 99% of the proposed ideas and they're ones we've internally analyzed as well. If any of them were absolutely viable we would've already implemented it by now. We do believe a long-term solution is out there, and it's one we are constantly thinking about. This is a topic that comes up pretty much in every team meeting. The obvious goal is to implement the simplest solution that requires the least amount of redesigning of the game and one that would have an acceptable amount of consequences (obviously no consequences would be ideal). But given how the competitive leagues are structured and how the Shield system was designed, the clouds are largely a victim of their own success.

    The PBT was in part to help mitigate some of those issues, and we've looked at expanding the Trophy range. But expanding the Trophy range, as noted in the OP, would just cause more issues downstream for lower Trophy players.

    If this were an easy issue to fix, it wouldn't take this many years to think of a solution. I want to keep this thread open for encouraging more ideas, but when you want to say, "it's so easy, just do <blank>" I urge you to rethink that. It really isn't an easy thing to fix.
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  2. #42
    Forum All-Star Damiz's Avatar
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    It is indeed an excellent thread and hopefully one that will lead to improvements being made.

    Not much I can add really to the well thought and well presented OP.

    Kudos Tiler.

    Hopefully others will see this thread and add to it rather than starting pointless complaint threads which take the debate no further.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by B1gb8dwo7f View Post
    As Legends works now, whoever attacks the most, wins.

    It is not and never has been, especially since the introduction of Th11, about who attacks best. One can argue that prior to Th11, it may have been about who defended best.

    My point being that any argument against a solution to clouds that doesn't make it about who attacks best, is not an argument.

    Time is all that matters in Legends, who attacks most, not about who attacks best.
    This is not true. What is true is that needing to be able to search a lot excludes many skilled players who would do better than some of the legends players, but cannot compete due to not being able to search all day long. However, to claim there is no skill distinction between the players who actually can search all day long is not correct. You cannot simply look at the leaderboard and count down from #1 to the end, in order, most attacks to the least, which is what you claimed. I do agree time plays too much of a part, though. That is one reason why I would like to see a search limit of 14-16 hours per day. That would at least take away the 24 hours per day playing.

    Quote Originally Posted by jbird2222 View Post
    Why hasn't this been moved to ideas and feature requests? Although I completely agree this issue needs to be THE most talked about topic, why not treat everyone fairly as opposed to moving some threads and not others? Like mine yesterday??

    SC needs to fix the clouds. Bottom line.

    Darian, WHAT IS GOING ON OVER THERE??? WE CAN'T PLAY THE GAAAAAMMMMMEEEEEE
    The thread was a compilation of explanations for many questions or suggestions we see here lately. We keep seeing “easy fix for clouds” threads and this thread was started to answer some of those questions. It was not started by OP to offer any ideas, although some have now started offering ideas, which is a natural progression of a thread like this.
    Contact SC here. Click here to see how trophies are calculated. I'm still thinking starting the "new" legends at Legends2 at 5500 and having Legends3 be for 5000-5499 would be good (with season resets to 5000 and 5500 depending on your trophies at season end) but overall I LOVE the Legends change. Thanks SC.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Darian[Supercell] View Post
    Just poking my head in here to say I'm keeping an eye on this excellent discussion. Thank you Tiler for eloquently organizing most of the proposed solutions with the pros and cons to them.

    The clouding issue is THE most difficult problem for us to solve. We've seen 99% of the proposed ideas and they're ones we've internally analyzed as well. If any of them were absolutely viable we would've already implemented it by now. We do believe a long-term solution is out there, and it's one we are constantly thinking about. This is a topic that comes up pretty much in every team meeting. The obvious goal is to implement the simplest solution that requires the least amount of redesigning of the game and one that would have an acceptable amount of consequences (obviously no consequences would be ideal). But given how the competitive leagues are structured and how the Shield system was designed, the clouds are largely a victim of their own success.

    The PBT was in part to help mitigate some of those issues, and we've looked at expanding the Trophy range. But expanding the Trophy range, as noted in the OP, would just cause more issues downstream for lower Trophy players.

    If this were an easy issue to fix, it wouldn't take this many years to think of a solution. I want to keep this thread open for encouraging more ideas, but when you want to say, "it's so easy, just do <blank>" I urge you to rethink that. It really isn't an easy thing to fix.
    While working on a long term solution, it would be great to have a couple minor improvements. Limiting searches to 16 hours per day would be a start. Allowing us to watch war attacks while in the clouds would be another great improvement. Adding anything else for us to do while in the clouds would be great (donations, base design, friendly challenges, etc.). Not allowing titans to attack legends and instead giving those matches to a legend player searching for hours rather than a titan searching for a minute would be nice. Legends should still be able to attack titans, which most titans would be happy with since they lose less trophies when hit by a legend.
    Contact SC here. Click here to see how trophies are calculated. I'm still thinking starting the "new" legends at Legends2 at 5500 and having Legends3 be for 5000-5499 would be good (with season resets to 5000 and 5500 depending on your trophies at season end) but overall I LOVE the Legends change. Thanks SC.

  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaluEF View Post
    How about using the PBT as a mean to provide more defenses?
    ...

    The idea:
    PBT becomes a defined duration, during which the base can be attacked multiple times, and defend more times, offering more defenses per attack per village ratio.

    The system:
    When PBT starts, the usual 5 minutes apply.
    During an ongoing defense, the base cannot be attacked, at end of attack the base resets (same defense/cc) for next defense.
    When PBT ends the resolution of defenses occur.

    PBT and resolution ‘ratio’:
    At Titan, less def/att ratio are needed: 4500-5000 - PBT = 12 minutes (2x 3’30” defenses) - Ratio 2
    Low legend, increase the ratio: 5000-5500 - PBT = 16 minutes (3x defs) - Ratio 3
    mid legend, increase more : 5500-6000 - PBT = 20 minutes (4x defs) - Ratio 4
    etc...
    My queries/objections about this solution would be:
    (1) You're assuming that all defences are under PBT. That might currently be the case at the moment in Legends, but it isn't necessarily so. Your mechanism uses the PBT to generate several defences. What happens if a player manually cancels their guard and goes on defence 30 minutes before PBT would kick in? Does it force them to stay off-line for 20 minutes and take 4 defences? Would that also be the case if they cancelled the guard right at the beginning? If it doesn't force the full 20 minutes, what happens if they are off-line, take one defence and then come online again? Do they get another 4 hours before PBT? If so, they've just dodged the multiple defences.
    And of course in T2 and T3 the guard already runs out before the PBT limit

    (2) I don't think this avoids my fundamental objection to all solutions which involve supplying more targets. If there are enough targets for everyone to attack without clouds, then it's crazy jemming and pay to win. If the number of targets is reduced, then you get clouds because that's the only rationing mechanism.
    As noted earlier in this thread it is possible to achieve a sort of middle ground, by supplying targets to limit cloud to, say, 1 hour. But that isn't really a "solution"

    (3) And it still leaves the advantage with the player who attacks most more than attacks best. It isn't essential to resolve this, ideally any "solution" would reduce or remove the advantage currently obtained by searching continuously
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  6. #46
    Forum All-Star PaluEF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nelard View Post
    I've thrown this idea out a few times and it did not make your list, so I'll offer it up again. It is similar to PvP, however it keeps the main theme of the alternating attack/defense that is clash of clans.

    Forced Defenses.
    ...So clouds are solved, loot maintained, alternating attack/defense theme in tact, a true skill based leader board...anybody have feedback or concerns on why it wouldn't work?
    I like this. Very similar to my Option 2, except yours occurs after every attack, mine occurring after every 'session'.

    TBH, since I am mostly avoiding clouds, I count on others to break apart these proposals, and get a feel about their viability.

    My main concern at this time would be the recurrent 'complaint' about the trophy system itself, which is those high leagues provides mostly +x/-6x for most attacks (eg +6/-30...). Hence on a 1:1 basis, the case where the attack gain exceeds the defense loss are a rarity (yet known as 'whales' mostly because very uncommon).
    Both your and my idea would increase the pressure on defense, as saving a 3-star or even win a defense would be the main push option...

  7. #47
    Forum All-Star PaluEF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OnyxDS View Post
    My queries/objections about this solution would be:
    (1) You're assuming that all defences are under PBT. That might currently be the case at the moment in Legends, but it isn't necessarily so. Your mechanism uses the PBT to generate several defences. What happens if a player manually cancels their guard and goes on defence 30 minutes before PBT would kick in? Does it force them to stay off-line for 20 minutes and take 4 defences? Would that also be the case if they cancelled the guard right at the beginning? If it doesn't force the full 20 minutes, what happens if they are off-line, take one defence and then come online again? Do they get another 4 hours before PBT? If so, they've just dodged the multiple defences.
    And of course in T2 and T3 the guard already runs out before the PBT limit

    (2) I don't think this avoids my fundamental objection to all solutions which involve supplying more targets. If there are enough targets for everyone to attack without clouds, then it's crazy jemming and pay to win. If the number of targets is reduced, then you get clouds because that's the only rationing mechanism.
    As noted earlier in this thread it is possible to achieve a sort of middle ground, by supplying targets to limit cloud to, say, 1 hour. But that isn't really a "solution"

    (3) And it still leaves the advantage with the player who attacks most more than attacks best. It isn't essential to resolve this, ideally any "solution" would reduce or remove the advantage currently obtained by searching continuously
    (1) Insert PBT whenever VG is broken. Yes, I assumed PBT is the logical continuation after VG ends, whenever that occurs. Maybe PBT is not the correct 'term'.

    (2) the trophy and loot wins in this model is affected by the ratio, and the ratio increases as trophy increase, giving away more and more in defense. But indeed, it is not addressing the 'pay-to-win'. Maybe the option 2 or Nelard's 'Forced Defense', does...

    (3) overall, I believe that defenses would take priority over attacks in a 1:1 model, as the trophy system does not typically provide as many trophies in wins as in defenses. In a lower ratio model, the number of attacks would indeed still be primary, but the gains are also limited...

    PS: my proposal does not change the trophy system as it is currently...

  8. #48
    One question that i have is, why we have so many leagues? Is'nt that the problem,because we separate the Players to much?

    Befor Titan and legende league was comming, there was a cloud problem? I ask because I am to short in this game....

    how about change the league system by bundeling the league with the townhall? I have no idea how exactly, sorry - is only an idea
    Last edited by SuperGrobi; March 23rd, 2018 at 12:54 PM.

  9. #49
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    Widen the search parameters for Legend League players

    The idea: Legend league players don't have enough bases to hit, right? So expand the search down in trophies every so often until a base is found, even if that's low Titan, Champion, or wherever there's a base available.

    The discussion: The biggest problem with this idea is that it doesn't actually fix any problems, it just pushes them somewhere else. And creates new ones. If you allow actively searching Legend league players to attack bases that are typically in range for Titan players to hit, you're taking targets away from Titan players. Now you've got Titans sitting in the clouds, and there are a lot more Titans. So now if we let Titans start hitting down, similar to Legends, we just push the cloud problem further down. And it isn't really alleviated up top, either. You've got an ever growing pool of players searching for a base, with an ever shrinking pool of bases to attack

    And that doesn't get into the new problem being introduced here. Even if it worked and everyone were able to attack more often, the game starts being pushed towards pay to win. It's not about how well you can attack, it's about how long you can spend online. It's about how much extra money you have to blow on gemming armies. At the top level, it's about how good you are at sharing your account. And I know that those are all problems already (Except gemming. When you're waiting 3 years to find a base, you don't need to wait for an army), but this would exacerbate them. That's no good.

    The verdict: It's just not going to work. There's too much wrong with this idea, and not nearly enough that's right with it. Back to the drawing board.
    But instead of widening the search for legend league players why not expand for everyone in all leagues. Just base it off TH or War weight? You already have these values in the game so just match a player with someone with a similar weight. If you are a TH8 in Titan (yeah I know unlikely) but you could be in Titan attacking other TH8's. Maybe that TH8 is in gold. Maybe its in legends. It shouldn't matter what league you are in but rather what TH you are and what your base weight is. You would then attack players with similar bases regardless of league. I don't know how this isn't fair. Yes you might pick on some ♥♥♥♥ bases or get matched with some really well designed base you aren't ready for but that's what the skip button is there for.


    This seems like an extremely fair way to handle it and eliminates potential clouds for all leagues and all TH's.


  10. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by nelard View Post
    I've thrown this idea out a few times and it did not make your list, so I'll offer it up again. It is similar to PvP, however it keeps the main theme of the alternating attack/defense that is clash of clans.

    Forced Defenses.

    Once you hit legends league, the following applies:

    Force players to take defenses to maintain a 1:1 attack ratio per player. After an attack, you may not attack again until you take a defense. This process can be automated for players by adding a "defend now" button to the shield area. By clicking this button:
    -Shield will be dismissed
    -Guard will be dismissed
    -Village becomes "locked" such that heroes are awake/asleep, loot cannot be collected, troops donated, buildings moved, etc. The player can view their base, but it is locked while in the matchmaking pool.

    ....

    So clouds are solved, loot maintained, alternating attack/defense theme in tact, a true skill based leader board...anybody have feedback or concerns on why it wouldn't work?
    Actually I think this does work to a large extent. I would describe this as PVP-lite. Like a BhB-style PVP model it forces the number of attacks and defences to be equal, therefore eliminating clouds. My concerns are:

    (1) Due to the rather limited scoring system (1*, 2*, 3*) there is a danger of serious player frustration if they score a series of 2* attacks and suffer 2* defences. The end result is that they gain no trophies, but they haven't really done anything wrong. How big a problem this is depends on the game balance. But we've often had a balance where 2* predominates, and in that case I think you would see a lot of players renting and rage-quitting due to this.

    (2) I'm not convinced this is better than the regular PVP model. I know the PVP model in BhB wasn't liked by many (including me), but I think most of those concerns are specific to farming, and especially the danger of being beaten up by someone massively stronger than you. However this doesn't really apply at top end trophy pushing, where players are all pretty much maxed.
    And regular PVP has the advantage that there is more often a winner. A 70% 2* beats a 65% 2* in PVP, but that's a draw in your model

    (3) I think there are some boundary issues between Titan and Legend that would need to be resolved. If Legend players are forced to go on defence more, there is a danger those targets are hit by Titan players. In the extreme case this could reverse the trophy flow (usually trophies are created sub-1000, and slowly carried up to Legend where they are destroyed) pulling the overall trophies of Legend players downwards and making it harder people to climb away especially after season reset

    Having said that, I think your suggestion does potentially remove clouds and without destroying the game entirely (unlike many of the "simple" solutions)
    Last edited by OnyxDS; March 23rd, 2018 at 01:02 PM.
    Various data posts: Who plays what? CWL data 1 (stars), 2 (3* rates), 3 (rosters), 4 (start times and other) Data at end of old Legends And (non-data) how max bases are ordered in war
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