Page 1 of 219 1231151101 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 2184

  Click here to go to the first staff post in this thread.   Thread: Cloud Control - All About Clouds and Our Proposed Solutions

  1. #1
    Tiler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Mount Celeste
    Posts
    6,472

    Cloud Control - All About Clouds and Our Proposed Solutions

    It's not often you see an entire community agree on something, but somehow, we managed it.

    Clouds suck.

    And over the years, a lot has been discussed. Why are clouds a problem? What causes them? And perhaps most important, how do we get rid of them? And with the fairly recent addition of clan games, the clouds have sunk lower, and are affecting more players than ever. And with that comes a flurry of solutions being proposed. The purpose of this thread is to collect those solutions and talk about them. What specific problems is a solution addressing? Could it work? Why or why not? Before you post your idea, please look over the list of solutions, highlighted in red below

    Darian's talked about it a lot. Truth be told, I think he's tired of it, but as of the QnA at the end of September, we have a pretty good idea of where the cloud situation stands. Click Here

    So, first things first...What causes clouds?

    Put as simply as possible, clouds are the result of more players trying to attack than there are bases able to defend. In Legend league, particularly in the upper 5000 trophy range and above, there are far more players trying to attack than there are defending. That doesn't necessarily mean that every single person is looking for a base, but anyone that isn't searching might be shielded, under guard or actively playing. The only people available to attack are those who are offline and without a shield or guard. And with so many Legends looking for a target, any base that fits those criteria are attacked immediately and put under a shield. So now everyone has to wait for another base to run out of shield and go offline. Searches can run in excess of six hours without a single opportunity to attack.

    Remember: Every time someone attacks a base, someone takes a defense. That may seem obvious. Duh, Tiler, why are you even bringing this up? But it's easily overlooked in the cloud problem. Every attack needs to have an accompanying defense. And when you don't have enough defenses to go around, the attacks simply cannot take place. The attacking to defending ratio across the game has to stay, by virtue of its design, at an even 1:1.

    A player in gold can attack endlessly because there are a lot more inactive bases able to take those defenses. There are bases which have undoubtedly taken 100 defenses in a row without attacking once. These inactive bases enable players like you and I to go and attack five or six times in a row. This situation doesn't exist in Legend league. Every base is active.

    - - - - - - -

    Alright. Now let's take a look at a few solutions that have been proposed and discuss their pros and cons. I'll list the solution first, followed by the problem/s it's meant to address. After that will come a lengthy discussion about the idea, and finally, a verdict. Is it a good solution?

    Here is a numbered list of solutions. Please look through this first, and see if your idea has been suggested. If your idea is a variant on one of these, mark what makes it different when you post.

    1) Widen the search parameters for Legend League players
    2) Reduce Legend shields
    3) Remove Village Guard for Legend players
    4) Remove shields for Legend players

    5) "Bot" bases and increasing dead bases
    6) PvP
    7) Remove leagues; base matchmaking on defensive weights
    8) Incentivize players to push to Legend League

    9) Increase cloud convenience and comfort without changing match making
    10) Trophy caps
    11) Forced defenses
    12) Limit quantity of attacks

    - - - - - - -

    1) Widen the search parameters for Legend League players

    The idea:
    Legend league players don't have enough bases to hit, right? So expand the search down in trophies every so often until a base is found, even if that's low Titan, Champion, or wherever there's a base available.

    The discussion:
    The biggest problem with this idea is that it doesn't actually fix any problems, it just pushes them somewhere else. And creates new ones. If you allow actively searching Legend league players to attack bases that are typically in range for Titan players to hit, you're taking targets away from Titan players. Now you've got Titans sitting in the clouds, and there are a lot more Titans. So now if we let Titans start hitting down, similar to Legends, we just push the cloud problem further down. And it isn't really alleviated up top, either. You've got an ever growing pool of players searching for a base, with an ever shrinking pool of bases to attack

    And that doesn't get into the new problem being introduced here. Even if it worked and everyone were able to attack more often, the game starts being pushed towards pay to win. It's not about how well you can attack, it's about how long you can spend online. It's about how much extra money you have to blow on gemming armies. At the top level, it's about how good you are at sharing your account. And I know that those are all problems already (Except gemming. When you're waiting 3 years to find a base, you don't need to wait for an army), but this would exacerbate them. That's no good.

    The verdict: It's just not going to work. There's too much wrong with this idea, and not nearly enough that's right with it. Back to the drawing board.

    2) Reduce the shield length for Legend League players

    The idea:
    Well, I said it earlier, didn't I? Part of the problem is that people are allowed to sit under shield without fear of attack. This takes away from the available bases

    The discussion:
    Yes. Kind of. But a shield doesn't mean a player isn't online. People are still going to sit online, with or without a shield. The only way this could really work is if Legend players were kicked off without a shield at a high enough rate to account for all of the people searching for a base. That's just not a fun situation. And the middle ground isn't much better. Say you kick people off twice as quickly as we do now to force twice as many defenses. Even if no one gets upset about being kicked off and forced to take a defense twice as often, clouds still aren't being fixed. You might reduce the wait time from six hours to three or four, at best. Is it better? I suppose. But it's far from a solution.

    The verdict: I just said it, didn't I? Forcing people to take extra defenses isn't fun for defending players, not to mention it makes trophy pushing twice as hard. It also doesn't fix clouds. This is not a good solution.

    3) Completely remove the Village Guard for Legend League players

    The idea:
    This is another one that I mentioned. Legends are able to sit with a Village Guard and go offline without fear of attack. Get rid of that, and you've got yourself a way to alleviate clouds.

    The discussion:
    Well, no. And this won't even take a lengthy paragraph. The purpose of the VG is to simulate activity so that a player doesn't have to watch their device at all times. It frees them up to do whatever they want. Usually they sit in clouds anyway. And that's kind of the point. All it does is simulate activity. You get the same effect by just sitting online. The VG is just a quality of life improvement. It's no different fundamentally from touching your screen every four and a half minutes. Since the VG expires at the same time that a player would be kicked off normally for PBT, it's not affecting anything.

    The verdict: No dice. This is the most "nothing" solution of the bunch. Granted, it doesn't create new problems like other suggestions, but it also doesn't fix any.

    4) Completely remove the shield for Legend League players

    The idea:
    I don't feel like I need to go over the idea here. I did it for the other shield idea. Same thing

    The discussion:
    Don't forget: Any time a Legend attacks through their shield, they're naturally shortening it. So the luckier a Legend player is at finding targets through their shield, the closer they are to this reality of having little to no shield. So what a shield really does in Legends is gives more time to the unluckier players to find a target.

    The verdict:
    This doesn't help any more than a shortened shield would, as it isn't really a different suggestion. In addition, you're taking away an equalizer that allows Legend players who have bad luck finding a base keep up with the players that the base-finding gods smile on.

    5) Create "bot" bases that offer minimal trophies and loot if a player has searched for a base for long enough

    The idea:
    Well, okay. Introducing bases into Legends that can take defenses constantly without attacking should relieve the cloud situation, right? That solves the issue where the system needs a defense for every attack.

    The discussion:
    You're not wrong. But let's dive a little deeper. How often would a "bot" base come up? After 2 hours? After 1 hour? I hardly consider 1 hour of waiting to be a solution, but it will make for a good example of both problems with this idea.

    For one, like I said, it doesn't really solve the cloud problem. But it does lighten it a bit, so let's roll with it for now, and say you're given a bot base after an hour of searching. An hour between attacks gives a player six chances to attack through a 12 hour shield and 4 hour VG. That's a 6:1 attack ratio, which means that, on average, only one actual person is being attacked for every five bot attacks. And with people being able to attack 6 times as often, trophies start to run away. Those able to attack 6 times will have their trophy levels skyrocket. Legend players will start to drift further and further apart from one another, making it even less likely that they find each other when matchmaking. And if they do find each other, they're likely to offer extreme trophy offers to one another, either by being a huge whale (+59) or by being a huge risk (-39). That's not really fun.

    So that's two issues. It's still cloudy, and you create problems within the trophy ladder. Not to mention the game stops being "multiplayer" and becomes more like a single player game where you attack bots. Anyway, you can lighten one issue or the other by lengthening or shortening the time it takes to find a bot base. But alleviating one problem makes the other problem worse. And taking it to the extreme where a bot base can be found immediately, we go back to the problem with any solution that allows for more attacks and fewer defenses. Shelling out money becomes a necessity to be the best. It becomes a show of who has the most time and money. Not who has the most skill.

    The verdict: For as bad of a shellacking as I gave this idea, it holds up better than the previous ideas in my opinion. The reason for that isn't that it's good, or that it fixes problems. It replaces the problems with new problems. Problems that, depending on how you look at it, may not really be problems. I can see a person thinking that it's just fine if a person can get 30000 trophies in a season by attacking simulated bases the whole time. This idea would fix clouds, but it would also hamper the integrity of the game. If you ask me, the new problems created here are worse than the problems that clouds currently have.

    6) Introduce PvP when players reach a certain trophy threshold


    The idea:
    There's a lot to unpack here. I couldn't do a better job talking about this than the original poster of the idea, so for a complete discussion on Legend PvP, check out Ariesram's thread. The discussion section will be the functioning summary this time

    The discussion:
    This idea helps with a lot of issues. It allows for non-stop attacking and forces a defense with every attack. We know how it works, we have it in the BB. But that's a part of the problem. Not everyone likes the BB. Not everyone likes PvP. It fixes clouds, sure. But at what cost? Do we want to drive away countless players who won't play anymore because they don't like the PvP format? You don't have to go far into the Builder Base subforum to come across complaint after complaint about why people think the matchmaker is unfair. A not insignificant number of players would prefer if the BB style of attacking stayed in the BB

    The verdict: The verdict is, technically, that this is a good idea. PvP solves the existing problems with the matchmaker and clouds. But, per Darian, PvP is not leading the charge as a solution to clouds. There's too big a concern with the backlash it could cause with players already in Legend league. But Darian puts it better in his own words in this video

    7) Remove leagues altogether. Create a ranking system based on defensive weight alone

    The idea: If you don't limit players to attacking within a certain range, you open up the pool to attack in.

    The discussion: This takes us back to pay to win. It's a solution that allows for more attacking without taking defenses, and lends itself to those with the most time and money. But it's worse than that.

    If you only take defensive weight into account, you open the door for low level bases to hit the top of the leader board. A TH4 could sit online all day with its clan castle full of TH11 troops and smash other TH3s all day, without limit, until it has 6000 trophies. In fact, it would be even easier to attack like that as a lower level town hall. So much easier that the leader board would almost definitely be taken up by low level bases. Practically speaking, a TH3 could get two attacks off for every one that a TH11 could do. And it would cost less to gem the armies required. And what's the point in that, really? That sounds like a terrible leader board. The point is to move forward and progress in this game, not play the tutorial and then run up the leader board in a month. But hey, you'd probably get rid of clouds!

    The verdict: This solution creates more problems. Even without clouds, the leader board is effectively meaningless because the top is completely dominated by the rich with too much time on their hands or low level bases. This is not a solution

    Here are some cloudy thoughts with OnyxDS. His post is a lengthy one, but it goes much further in depth regarding this particular suggestion. And it has a graphic, something my post sorely lacks

    8) Incentivise more players to push to Legend League


    The idea: More players, more bases, am I right?

    The discussion: You're not wrong. Remember, the problem is that too many players are trying to attack too few bases. It doesn't matter if it's 10 people trying to attack 1 base, or 10 million people trying to attack 1 million bases. You'll have clouds in both instances, neither situation better than the other. You've still got too many people trying to attack too often

    The verdict: While getting more people to want to push trophies wouldn't be a bad thing by any means, it does absolutely nothing to help with the cloud situation

    9) Don't change clouds. Instead, change how clouds work to make them bearable

    The idea: Allow the matchmaker to continue to search for a base without having to literally sit in the clouds.

    The discussion: So expand, you'd be able to hit "Attack", shut off your app, and do whatever you need to do in real life without monopolizing your device. Even better, you would be able to sit in your main village and watch replays, chat, even donate troops and spells from the half of your queue that isn't dedicated to your attacking army. Once a base is found, you would receive a push notification, then you'd have a limited time to hop on and perform your attack.

    But realistically, that window to hop on and attack would have to be really short. If it's too long, even, say, five minutes, that's stalling an already stalled system. You'd have to be ready to drop everything and attack as soon as that notification shows up. The last thing we need is to create even more waiting. So this wouldn't make Legends any more accessible to the people who don't have the time to dedicate to the long waits

    The verdict: It's far from a solution. It doesn't make pushing any more accessible to those who are already put off by the wait time, and if it isn't handled right, it would actually make the problem worse. But it would be a nice quality of life change. It could make for a pretty decent band-aid until a more encompassing solution came along

    10) Set a trophy cap at 5000/Treat all players at or above 5000 trophies as though they have 5000 trophies

    The idea: Rather than all of the Legend players dispersing and tapering at the top of the ladder, the players bunch up and are more available to each other, as well as Titan players.

    The discussion: I'm just briefly going to mention the pay to win problem, as that's going to crop up every time that more attacks are made available without increasing the number of defenses. I know I sound like a broken record at this point, but it's true. Otherwise, it would at least lessen the clouds, help mitigate horrendous trophy loss and make attacks worth more on average, due to most attacks being equal in trophy count for +30/-20. If there isn't a hard cap on trophies (for the leader board, the matchmaker still uses 5000 as the value when searching), then you have a runaway trophy problem because of attacks being worth more, more attacks becoming available, and defenses being less penalizing. If you ask me though, runaway trophies are much less of a problem than several hour long wait time. But being a pay to win system is kind of a deal breaker

    The verdict: Here, we're substituting one glaring problem for another. While our current leader board does not have gemmers at the top, it certainly isn't the best show of skill. But at least you don't have to pay to be there. So the verdict here comes down to Supercell's values. Supercell has never once introduced something that would be exclusive to paying players. It goes hard against the freemium model. I do not think Supercell would create a leader board that free players don't have a shot at, so this idea is a bust.

    11) Force a defense after every attack

    The idea: Don't allow a Legend player to attack back to back. Force them to take a defense before making a second attack. This forces a 1:1 ratio

    The discussion: And it certainly does. It's the 1:1 nature of PvP without the pressure of actual PvP. You would get one attack. You wouldn't necessarily be kicked off afterwards. You could do a war attack. You could edit your base. You could train and donate troops. But if you tried to attack again, you would get a message saying something to the effect of, "You cannot attack again until you have gone on defense!" Once you're attacked, you're free to attack again.

    But being similar to PvP without actually being PvP highlights flaws in the current system which make this a difficult system. To start, you do have the benefit of nexting. You'd be more likely to find bases, and while there would likely still be a little bit of waiting, it likely wouldn't be enough that you couldn't search for a good offer. I'll say, for discussion's sake, that everyone is looking for a juicy +40.

    So let's say you have two attackers: Monica and Chris. Monica is really solid on attacking and averages 85% and 2 stars when she attacks in multiplayer. She goes out, makes her attack, gets her average 85% 2 star and nets a nice +27. Now Chris is a bit more mediocre. He scrapes a 50% 2 star and runs out of steam. He attacks Monica after she's logged out, scoring +27 on a 40 cup offer, taking every trophy Monica had just earned on her attack. This same situation happens to Monica time and time again, where she scores +27 on her 80-90% attacks, while she loses just as many with weaker 50-60% hits on her base. In PvP, she would win every time. But in Main Village multiplayer, the percent difference means nothing. The victory conditions are exclusively about how many stars you get. Given this skill difference, it's clear that Monica is the better attacker, but she can't gain any ground on the Chris's out there.

    To fix this, you would have to completely change the way the trophies are awarded. A possible solution is to increase the number of stars from 3 to 5 or more. Alternatively, you could scrap stars entirely and award trophies based on percent, with the Town Hall being worth a sizable percentage (30?), to continue to encourage people to protect it. The remainder of the base makes up the remaining 70%. With this set up, Monica's average attack would get her a score of 90% and +36 trophies. Chris would score 65% and only gain +26. Monica begins to pull away from Chris 10 trophies at a time, showing her as the superior attacker.

    The verdict: I love it. Better than PvP in my opinion, given the changes that would have to be made to have the system better reflect skill. The idea is still new to me though, so I won't say it's the solution we're all looking for. I'll continue to look for other opinions and arguments to further shape my own opinion. But for now, I really like it. As is, it keeps the 1:1 ratio, it rewards the more skilled attacker, it doesn't restrict the number of attacks you can do, and it likely wouldn't have the adversity that PvP faces from many players. I would love a Supercell opinion on this idea.

    12) Limit the number of attacks Legend players can do in a day

    The idea: Reducing the number of attacks a player can do in a day will prevent a pay to win scenario, and bring the attack:ratio closer to 1:1

    The discussion: I'm kind of cheating a little bit by listing this by itself as an idea. It doesn't really belong on its own, and it's better paired with other suggestions, such as capping players at 5000 trophies. But if this list starts to include combinations of ideas, this list will start to get away from me

    Limiting attacks in general is a fairly dangerous thing. Anything that outright restricts the amount that someone can play is generally not something a business wants. But it would at least help a bit. Even as we are now, if the maximum number of attacks was limited to something below what the average of what the top players are capable of, but above what other players are stuck with, you start to even the playing field, bringing some skill back to the leader board and taking away the luck factor when finding a base

    The verdict: I think this, along with similar ideas like limiting the amount of time you can search in a day, make for good band-aids. It would be good to put something like this in place while Supercell implements a more permanent and effective solution. Because it can't be a solution on its own. Even coupled with other ideas, you only end up patching up bigger problems instead of actually solving them. Take the 5000 trophy cap, for example. If you limit attacks to ten per day in order to prevent gemmers from being able to run up the board with gemmed armies, then you also create a situation where there's no point in playing once you reach a certain threshold. Again, it's better than having no limits, but it isn't a long-term solution
    Last edited by Tiler; 2 Weeks Ago at 06:55 PM.
    Cloud Control - Why are clouds so terrible, and what are the possible ways to get rid of them?

  2. #2
    Tiler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Mount Celeste
    Posts
    6,472
    Also, I didn't spend 4 hours writing this much:




    for anyone to say tl;dr. So help me if you do. And please, if you want to reply to the OP, please don't quote the whole thing. Be picky.

    Cheers!
    Last edited by Tiler; March 24th, 2018 at 02:47 PM.
    Cloud Control - Why are clouds so terrible, and what are the possible ways to get rid of them?

  3. #3
    Forum Elder Piper139's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    2,087
    Can't give rep but very inciteful post.

  4. #4
    Great thread!

    Personally I like the bot bases idea the best, but with almost no wait time. However I'm not even thinking about the leaderboard, I can certainly see the potential pay to win issues so it certainly isn't a good solution for everyone.
    IGN: Jiggy82
    CoC: TH11/BH7, Level 179. || jiggy8200 (mini) TH11-eagle/BH7, Level 158 Clan: Blood by Rage
    BB: HQ22, Level 65, +/- 500 VPs, TF: BringersofRain // Brawl: Level 38, 1775 Trophies
    CR: A12 (challenger II), Lvl. 11, Clan: BringersofRain (Alt: BringersofRain2 A12, L10)

  5. #5
    Millennial Club Roynice152's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Nebraska
    Posts
    1,427
    Great in-depth analysis you did. How about if the realm of searches was expanded from Legend to Titan to Champion. Is it fair for a Champion to get attacked by a Legend? Not really, but TH11s find TH11s and rarely do they find a TH10. With the loot penalty, most don't attack a TH10. But a maxed TH11 doesn't need the loot do they? I don't anyone who has all their walls maxed out. Alot of TH11s go down to Gold, Masters, Crystal to hide from the higher TH11s. This will also penalize the players who have rushed their bases or engineered them to be hit by the more powerful TH11s.

    When TH12 comes out, how many who aren't maxed will be going to TH12 for all the new stuff? Probably more than you think.

    So my proposal is to expand the search of the Leagues.

    "Experience, the one thing in life you can not buy"
    Town Hall 11 • Level 183
    1031 war stars • Level 10 Clan • #8RLP2VV


  6.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #6
    Kaptain Kat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Cruising
    Posts
    9,714
    Quote Originally Posted by Roynice152 View Post
    Great in-depth analysis you did. How about if the realm of searches was expanded from Legend to Titan to Champion. Is it fair for a Champion to get attacked by a Legend? Not really, but TH11s find TH11s and rarely do they find a TH10. With the loot penalty, most don't attack a TH10. But a maxed TH11 doesn't need the loot do they? I don't anyone who has all their walls maxed out. Alot of TH11s go down to Gold, Masters, Crystal to hide from the higher TH11s. This will also penalize the players who have rushed their bases or engineered them to be hit by the more powerful TH11s.

    When TH12 comes out, how many who aren't maxed will be going to TH12 for all the new stuff? Probably more than you think.

    So my proposal is to expand the search of the Leagues.
    This also isn’t an ideal solution. It will create similar issues as the bot bases and on top of that it will make the cloudy area expand tremendously across many leagues.


    Tiler,
    Great work!

    Thank you! ClashOfHolmes for an awesome sig!

    Just call me K, my name is too difficult to spell.
    GC: Kolonistje1 | Level: 116 | # VL8GVUL | Main Hay Day Topics | Forum Rules | HD Wiki

  7. #7
    The Not So Sneaky Ninja N1NJ4W4RR10R's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    I'm an Aussie in the AEST zone.
    Posts
    5,552
    Just curious, but what about a system that rewards those taking defenses with more trophies on the next attack?

    Got this idea from (WoW?), in that game every hour you are offline builds up a bonus of sorts. This is done to incentise people to not play 24/7. A similar ish system could work in clash, if more people want to take defences there'll (obviously) be more bases to attack. The best way (I can think of) to do this would be adding a "trophy bonus" for every attack taken (maybe getting smaller/bigger based on how many stars and a win/loss, at the start would be best to just have a standardised bonus for defences taken)
    Last edited by N1NJ4W4RR10R; March 23rd, 2018 at 12:28 AM.
    Click here to see my youtube channel. Make sure to read the description for the info I cant fit here.
    Looking to join a clan where wars dont stop, a clan with some great people
    always around to chat? Check out the Forum Goat Herd, the best place to be!
    Thanks to evertonjeff for the awesome sig pic and avatar!!!

  8. #8
    The Not So Sneaky Ninja N1NJ4W4RR10R's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    I'm an Aussie in the AEST zone.
    Posts
    5,552
    Of course you could also just make defence possible and verh rewarding. But that would require the top not to be skilled and a lot of balancing....so I dont see that being a real possibility, lol.
    Click here to see my youtube channel. Make sure to read the description for the info I cant fit here.
    Looking to join a clan where wars dont stop, a clan with some great people
    always around to chat? Check out the Forum Goat Herd, the best place to be!
    Thanks to evertonjeff for the awesome sig pic and avatar!!!

  9. #9
    Forum Elder Reefus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    2,331
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiler View Post


    Remove leagues altogether. Create a ranking system based on defensive weight alone

    The idea: If you don't limit players to attacking within a certain range, you open up the pool to attack in.

    The discussion: This takes us back to pay to win. It's a solution that allows for more attacking without taking defenses, and lends itself to those with the most time and money. But it's worse than that.

    If you only take defensive weight into account, you open the door for low level bases to hit the top of the leader board. A TH4 could sit online all day with its clan castle full of TH11 troops and smash other TH3s all day, without limit, until it has 6000 trophies. In fact, it would be even easier to attack like that as a lower level town hall. So much easier that the leader board would almost definitely be taken up by low level bases. Practically speaking, a TH3 could get two attacks off for every one that a TH11 could do. And it would cost less to gem the armies required. And what's the point in that, really? That sounds like a terrible leader board. The point is to move forward and progress in this game, not play the tutorial and then run up the leader board in a month. But hey, you'd probably get rid of clouds!

    The verdict: This solution creates more problems. Even without clouds, the leader board is effectively meaningless because the top is completely dominated by the rich with too much time on their hands or low level bases. This is not a solution
    I think you’re giving this idea short shrift. The devil to making this idea viable is in the details. I and others recently discussed a version of this where:

    > players only gain access to low league bases after spending some time in the clouds first.
    > trophy offers for someone with a max th11 base sitting in gold league would still be nominal, baybe a few cups for a three star, but it would give a cloud player something to hit at least.
    > there’s no reason why other parameters shouldn’t come into play. The weight used for matching shouldn’t be the weight of the searcher for example, but the median or average weight of the players in legend league. This addresses your concern of th3s attacking th3s in low leagues which would be ludicrous and not what is suggested.
    > such a mechanism doesn’t even to be available to players until high clouds

    i have a mini in low leagues that recently found a max th11 working on walls in gold 3. Such a player would almost never be attacked by other gold league players. They have near zero risk and farm dead bases for loot. That’s perfectly fine but there’s no reason that’s the way it should be. Opening up these very high level bases to attack by legend players alleviates clouds at least somewhat, while Introducing some risk of actually being seriously attacked by farmers in low leagues

    limiting the availability of these bases to only legend players that have spent some time in the clouds, and making the cup offers low should prevent the pay to win scenario you fear while improving the quality of life for legend leaguers at least somewhat. It’s not a silver bullet to clouds but I think it’s a stone that hits multiple birds.

  10. #10
    OnyxDS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Brexit Island
    Posts
    5,797
    Quote Originally Posted by Reefus View Post
    I think you’re giving this idea short shrift. The devil to making this idea viable is in the details. I and others recently discussed a version of this where:
    I don't think this avoids the fundamental problem that if there are plentiful targets then it's pay-to-win, and if not there are clouds. Now, you're right that issuing an extra target after someone has been in clouds for some time wouldn't be especially pay-to-win if "some time" was long enough - especially if more than the army cook time of 50 minutes or so. But a solution that reduces clouds to 30-60 minutes isn't exactly a solution to clouds. It might be that some balance offering a few extra bases could be a bit better than now, but it's only marginal. SC have made marginal changes before (like abolishing 1 cup offers), but they aren't solutions.

    I also think you maybe underestimate the sheer demand for targets in Legend league and how much carnage that could cause if unleashed on lower leagues. I did some API trawling last year and the average wins-per-day was around 2 for active players in all leagues below Legend, and IIRC around 4 in Legends. If you gave players in Legends an extra target after, say, 30 minutes clouding, I reckon they could be taking several extra targets each per day.

    I also did some league analysis from the API. This is some months out of date... but this was the breakdown of the leagues of random TH11s I could find:



    The Legends has probably gone up slightly since - so maybe call it 3% to make a nice round number.

    The number of low-league-TH11s per Legend-TH11 isn't all that enormous. If each Legend TH11 was offered, say, 5 extra targets a day (which could still be multi-hour clouding if people search much of the day), that would require hitting 15% of TH11s, ie every single Silver and Gold TH11, and some of the Crystal ones.

    If the number of Legend-TH11s goes up much, or they take more than 5 targets a day, this could quickly consume every single TH11 target in low leagues, leading to substantial clouding - and that's still assuming quite a long delay before a low target is offered, and therefore quite a bit of clouding.

    So, conceptually, offering extra targets to clouders only after a fair bit of clouding can largely avoid pay-to-win, but at the cost of not really solving clouds. And if doing it by means of hitting low-league TH11s there might not actually be enough low-league TH11s around. To do this approach of offering only limited extra targets it might be safer to make them ghost bases (which could also duplicate Legend layouts and therefore be a more meaningful target - there's some REALLY dopey bases down in Silver!)

    PS - I also have another partial objection to any create-more-targets solution. Whether pay-to-win or not, if SC create extra targets it doesn't get away from the fact that the winner is currently who attacks most, rather than who attacks best. Whether most attacks is achieved by cloud time or gemming, neither is ideal. Solutions that force players to defend once per attack, fundamentally shift the focus onto the trophies gained per attack, rather than the number of attacks, and therefore onto the skill of the attacks.
    Last edited by OnyxDS; March 23rd, 2018 at 02:19 AM.
    Forum cup organiser. The forum cup discord server is: https://discord.gg/KEUxV2e

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •