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Thread: I give up

  1. #41
    Millennial Club PapaTroll's Avatar
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    I think much of the anger comes from a misunderstanding of the workings of the match maker. There is a ton of advice and information in these forums. Some of it well-reasoned and informed. Some based on misinformation and superstition.

    OP talks about his base matching an opposition base. Bases do not match bases. Clans match clans. If your in-lane matchup places you at a disadvantage then it is likely there are other shadows in the lineup where YOUR clan has the advantage. If you cannot 3 star your opposite number, go lower.

    Any time you place high weight defenses like xbows, infernoes or especially eagles you will increase the war weight of the opposing clan by a similar amount. Be prepared for this.

    There are no flags. Being engineered or maxed does not not place you in a separate category that protects you from difficult matches. At any time you can match any clan with a similar clan score, regardless of the build of individual bases in the clan.

    The anger arises when people take action based on erroneous understanding, and still receive unexpected results. The decision on when to place your infernoes and eagles is yours alone, but remember that it is an irreversible decision and you will live with the consequences. You might want to carefully weigh all the pros and cons.

    The matchmaker is in a pretty good place right now. Most wars are decided in the attacks, choosing the right targets, bringing the right army for the base etc. I am impressed by the number of wars in our war log decided by close margins.

    Sometimes the reason your win percentage drops from 70% to 50% is as simple as your clan is getting better and as a result facing tougher competition.

    Clash on.
    Listen, and understand! That New Algorithm is out there! It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pain. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop... ever, until your win streak is broken.

  2. #42
    Forum Veteran wysiwyg's Avatar
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    I can sympathize.
    When the builder base was promoted as a substitute for clan wars and sc putting all that work into the big update... and wham. Minor tweaks to the wmm system and nothing to stop the rampant sandbagging. Oh! And a broken boat still dirtying up my shore.

    However, things are looking up these days (or Iím a gullible idiot). The mm puts our 0%aeng clan against clans with only one or two lopsided bases. An improvement to say the least, and evidence to back up darianís words that efforts were being made to match engi v engi

    And to boot! Weíre supposedly looking forward to an update in early summer to penalize sandbagging in war. Iím cautiously optimistic. If all this gives you and your clan a glimmer of hope, I hope youíll ride it out a few months and see what the update brings.

    Stay clashy

  3. #43
    Pro Member TheGame1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PapaTroll View Post
    Any time you place high weight defenses like xbows, infernoes or especially eagles you will increase the war weight of the opposing clan by a similar amount. Be prepared for this.
    I respectfully disagree with this, since they started messing with the MM last year. I believe anyone holding their defense back will be matched on their offense regardless and so putting themselves at a disadvantage.

    It's that information right their which causes people to lopside their base, they get to an offensive point where they move from hitting fairly weak bases on the enemy side of the map to having to hit bigger bases, and they get in to this mindset where it will somehow get worse. If they drop xbows and infernos, then somehow there will be an extra big base on the enemy map, so they lopside more.

    My experience of watching a lot of 8.5's and 9.5's dropping xbows and infernos, is it doesn't pull extra weight, the enemy bases don't get tougher, more bigger bases don't suddenly start appearing, the matchup is just more even now. As far as I'm concerned its not even debateable but then I guess everyone has their own experiences.

    We just had a 10.5 drop his eagle 2 wars ago, did the wars get harder? Not a chance he was already drawing eagles with his mid 40 heroes, atleast the enemy have a tougher time now.
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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGame1 View Post
    I respectfully disagree with this, since they started messing with the MM last year. I believe anyone holding their defense back will be matched on their offense regardless and so putting themselves at a disadvantage.

    It's that information right their which causes people to lopside their base, they get to an offensive point where they move from hitting fairly weak bases on the enemy side of the map to having to hit bigger bases, and they get in to this mindset where it will somehow get worse. If they drop xbows and infernos, then somehow there will be an extra big base on the enemy map, so they lopside more.

    My experience of watching a lot of 8.5's and 9.5's dropping xbows and infernos, is it doesn't pull extra weight, the enemy bases don't get tougher, more bigger bases don't suddenly start appearing, the matchup is just more even now. As far as I'm concerned its not even debateable but then I guess everyone has their own experiences.

    We just had a 10.5 drop his eagle 2 wars ago, did the wars get harder? Not a chance he was already drawing eagles with his mid 40 heroes, atleast the enemy have a tougher time now.
    Weight are measured by offensive and defensive weights together per bases. Defensive weights are counted much heavier and this is the reason engineering exists. Adding defensive will cause the opponent to have stronger bases but there are also other effects.

    SC is matching not only your weights but also your playstyle. Removing .5 bases is one way to make your account more balanced and a good way to avoid being mixed up with engineered accounts. This is the reason u found matchups being more even. Maxing out previous th lvl is also a very good way to make sure SC cant find anything "wrong" on your base

  5. #45
    Millennial Club PapaTroll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGame1 View Post
    I respectfully disagree with this, since they started messing with the MM last year. I believe anyone holding their defense back will be matched on their offense regardless and so putting themselves at a disadvantage.
    I continue to run engineers in our wars, and I have not witnessed anything like the phenomenon you describe.

    But this was my point. People make decisions based on what they perceive to be the workings of the mm. If the match they get seems to violate what they thought the "rules" we're they become angry and blame SuperCell instead of adapting to the new evidence.

    As evidence read any of the hundreds of treads and thousands of posts that begin with some variation of "we don't engineer, but we got matched against a clan with engineers...".

    The mm tries to give a good, even match in which both sides have some chance of winning. Right now it seems to be in a good place.
    Listen, and understand! That New Algorithm is out there! It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pain. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop... ever, until your win streak is broken.

  6. #46
    Senior Member SkyValker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PapaTroll View Post
    I continue to run engineers in our wars, and I have not witnessed anything like the phenomenon you describe.

    But this was my point. People make decisions based on what they perceive to be the workings of the mm. If the match they get seems to violate what they thought the "rules" we're they become angry and blame SuperCell instead of adapting to the new evidence.

    As evidence read any of the hundreds of treads and thousands of posts that begin with some variation of "we don't engineer, but we got matched against a clan with engineers...".

    The mm tries to give a good, even match in which both sides have some chance of winning. Right now it seems to be in a good place.

    I very much agree with your last comment Papa - the matchmaker does seem to be in a very good place at present, and most people seem to be very happy with the match ups!

    The comment above this, I also agree that a lot of people are saying this (we don't engineer, but we're getting matched with engineers.) Very often however, when you start digging deeper, the story changes a little. "We don't engineer.... we just haven't built infernos on our TH11 bases yet"

    My perception (purely on anecdotal evidence, and it's what I want to see also....!)
    Smart engineers - still doing well, although not getting quite as much advantage as they used to.
    Casual engineers - finding their match ups can be very tough. Either getting matched with heavy engineers, or maxers (and either way can be at a slight disadvantage)
    Non-engineers/maxers - finding life is a lot better now, getting very few heavy engineers, and having an advantage over light engineers.

    The one other category that I have seen is people with either a wide range of town hall levels in War (or a 'bring every base you can' to war, whether it is rushed/engineered/maxed, and with a wide range) - I'm seeing complaints from some of these. Albeit, I would expect that on the Forum - people don't generally come to complain if they are getting excellent match ups!

    TL:dr - I'm loving the matchups, as a maxer (/reformed .5 engineer!)

  7. #47
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    as a non-engineered clan I agree with your statement about non engineered/maxers, but its rare that I think we are in advantage. Almost every matchup are fair tho

    The problem is those clans that try to be balanced but don't know how and get engineered opponents.
    I don't blame the mma for this, its more an issue that SC don't tell the rules
    Last edited by clashaddict9; March 12th, 2018 at 08:27 PM.

  8. #48
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    I am not sure there is any advantage to be gained with the roster, at the moment. It seems to be covering most bases lately, so far as we can check, with the controls we have. TH match seems ok, we can visually check that. Def weight seems ok, so long as its gold weight, and it is actually a "real" guideline. Off weight is more tricky, 3rd party or recommended target. But so long as bases are fairly balanced, a winnable match up is likely, for either side. Not sure how recent performance comes into it either, that bit is a bit sketchy. But so long as its best side wins, is all anyone should be looking for. NB.. a stretched roster is having no advantageous effect either, in our experience, as the MM seems to be getting a close hall match all the way down.

  9. #49
    Millennial Club PapaTroll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clashaddict9 View Post
    as a non-engineered clan I agree with your statement about non engineered/maxers, but its rare that I think we are in advantage. Almost every matchup are fair tho

    The problem is those clans that try to be balanced but don't know how and get engineered opponents.
    I don't blame the mma for this, it's more an issue that SC don't tell the rules
    We may disagree on some points, but on this important point we both agree.

    Until someone comes up with a surefire way to crack the secret, we will continue to play the game with a variety of strategies as we seek the optimum lineup. You continue to max bases and deploy big defenses early. I will continue to deploy 2 to 4 engineers in 25v25 wars and put some x.5s below the anchors. As long as each of us has a strategy and we both believe in it, we can both enjoy the game.

    Clash on.
    Listen, and understand! That New Algorithm is out there! It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pain. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop... ever, until your win streak is broken.

  10. #50
    Forum Elder SuperStorm103's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clashaddict9 View Post
    Weight are measured by offensive and defensive weights together per bases. Defensive weights are counted much heavier and this is the reason engineering exists. Adding defensive will cause the opponent to have stronger bases but there are also other effects.

    SC is matching not only your weights but also your playstyle. Removing .5 bases is one way to make your account more balanced and a good way to avoid being mixed up with engineered accounts. This is the reason u found matchups being more even. Maxing out previous th lvl is also a very good way to make sure SC cant find anything "wrong" on your base
    Quote Originally Posted by clashaddict9 View Post
    as a non-engineered clan I agree with your statement about non engineered/maxers, but its rare that I think we are in advantage. Almost every matchup are fair tho

    The problem is those clans that try to be balanced but don't know how and get engineered opponents.
    I don't blame the mma for this, its more an issue that SC don't tell the rules
    It's time to move past the "flags" theory. You are not saying it directly but almost every post features some sort of "you match engineers because you built your base wrong". According to SC there is no wrong base build. We are free to build as we like. But in allowing that, they need to have a matchmaker that can do it's job. I think currently they are close. Not sure what this means for the future "fix".

    Bases are not inspected by SuperCell. You are correct when you say that clans are matched on their totals. This defines their "play style". Your clan is not seen as engineered by the Matchmaker because you did not 100% max the previous town hall or missed one level on one wall segment or that you have a single .5 or multiple in in your roster. It's the ratio that matters and your roster break down.

    Engineering exists because the matchmaker works with averages and averages can be skewed. That is why roster engineering was able to create "unwinnable wars". Another reason engineering exists is the out of date inaccurate weighting system that makes certain bases appear to be a good match to other types of bases when in reality they are not. For example a th11 with no leveled offense except max dragons and missing mortars but extra high levels on other defenses averaging out on offense and defense to a th9 with a maxed lab and x-bows. Those bases are not equal, but looking at weight totals they may be similar.

    I do not think there is a high priority on defenses anymore. I think the order of importance for matching is TH11 count > TH11 offense > Total offense >...other variables...> defense power >...other variables. It appears that there was also some re balancing of offense weight that has yielded much more accuracy in accounting for and valuing a offensive power.

    People complained because engineering ruined the balance of the match (and it did). Now, wars appear to be balanced despite your roster or who you match. Roster commonality determines how exact your matches will be and how long your search is.

    We had a very random roster in CWSF with engineering, maxed, and rushed bases. We got a good match and a 1 hour search for a 40 vs 40.

    One final note, if their matchmaker did look at bases in the war specifically. Matches in the past where one clan is all th9's and the other is mostly th9's with a few low sitting town hall 11's with a maxed troop comps should not happen but it did.
    Last edited by SuperStorm103; March 12th, 2018 at 10:42 PM.
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