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Thread: Definition of a 0.5 base

  1. #21
    Forum Superstar StormHeart's Avatar
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    I've only read the first few answers and oh boy are they wrong.

    I'm sure someone has answered it by now but...

    A .5 is a base that has added NO new defenses at that TH level. Pretty simple.

    You can upgrade all old defenses but not add any new ones.

    You can add storages and other non-defenses bases but a fourth AD at TH9 is definitely not a .5 base.

    Is that engineered? To me, engineering is taking the .5 concept to a new level. I don't call those bases engineered myself but I can see where others might. I do disagree but I don't do it any more because you'll see more engineers if you do. At least that was our clan's experience. I used to be a big fan of .5s.

    The idea behind it is you can only lose three stars but you can gain six. Pretty much the idea behind engineering. I just don't do it any more. The purpose is to gain an advantage and it works but with engineers in the mix you'll probably see more of them. And, they are likely to have a much bigger advantage.
    Last edited by StormHeart; January 11th, 2018 at 03:19 PM.

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  2. #22
    Forum Elder TankSinatra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StormHeart View Post
    I've only read the first few answers and oh boy are they wrong.

    I'm sure someone has answered it by now but...

    A .5 is a base that has added NO new defenses at that TH level. Pretty simple.

    You can upgrade all old defenses but not add any new ones.
    No point in fighting the tide though, now .5 means "no xbow(th9) no inferno (th10) no eagle(th11)" and you can add "transitional", "early", "heavy", "9.75" as further descriptions. Probably 99% of the people that throw around the term ".5" aren't using Hulk/Jake's definition. Including you - if you upgraded old defenses, you were straying from the Jake/Hulk path.

    Its just not the definition anyone uses anymore, but that's what it meant to Jake & Hulk three years ago. The idea came from the false premise that offense doesn't weigh anything. Note Hulk's 9.5 has 50+ blue walls but no new defenses dropped, nothing upgraded. Jake's idea was the same, he specifically says to build the things that have no weight, like clan castle, camps, spell factory (false but widely believed at the time). Anyone following a plan, dictated by weights and understanding of the matchmaker (even if flawed), is engineering.

    Around 1:10 from Jake's video - "now they can build their offense to the point where they can take out th10s but they are still being considered a th9 in the war matchmaker". No surprise they didn't call it engineering since the term wasn't in use yet, but that's definitely what we call it now.

    Quote Originally Posted by StormHeart View Post
    The idea behind it is you can only lose three stars but you can gain six.
    This is the same rationale, goal, and method that all 'defense light' engineers use, including defenseless.
    Last edited by TankSinatra; January 11th, 2018 at 03:52 PM.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by StormHeart View Post

    I'm sure someone has answered it by now but...

    A .5 is a base that has added NO new defenses at that TH level.
    Yes, true, correct I have, 10 points to you!!

    But, as with many things, perceptions change overtime, which I have no probem with tbh. In my post https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...1#post11361091 , I was reflecting on videos that are circa 3 years old now.

    It's totally understandable that so many players argue over the 'X.5 = Engineering = You are an Engineer, not a Maxer' debate when the definition of what an X.5 actually is seems to have slid into a pit of ambiguity over the last 3 or 4 years!

    It is what it is! Times change.
    Last edited by Skrags; January 11th, 2018 at 03:55 PM.
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  4. #24
    Forum Elder TankSinatra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skrags View Post
    Yes, true, correct I have, 10 points to you!!

    But, as with many things, perceptions change overtime, which I have no probem with tbh.
    Is that what you did though, while calling yourself a .5? Nothing on defense except walls, not even upgrading existing defenses?
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by TankSinatra View Post
    Is that what you did though, while calling yourself a .5? Nothing on defense except walls, not even upgrading existing defenses?
    It was a while ago, but I seem to remember coming from a maxed (hero, wall) th9 at 70k gold weight, I added archer tower, cannon and brought them to th9, plus did traps, including teslas, and weighed 71k. I called that a 9.5, but then slowly went to the dark side.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by TankSinatra View Post
    No point in fighting the tide though, now .5 means "no xbow(th9) no inferno (th10) no eagle(th11)" and you can add "transitional", "early", "heavy", "9.75" as further descriptions. Probably 99% of the people that throw around the term ".5" aren't using Hulk/Jake's definition. Including you - if you upgraded old defenses, you were straying from the Jake/Hulk path.
    This.

    Few people nowadays do a "true/pure" X.5, at least I rarely see them. For example, a pure 9.5 would never weigh more than 70k max th9 (even with max heroes) while pursuing max offense. So, a max 9.5 would be a max th9 defensively, but th10 offensively.

    Now, we see other variants, which are less rigid. For example, some 9.5s will max their existing defenses but never add any new ones (usually 73-74k weight).

    Others, I call maxer X.5s, will add everything except the heavy defense (inferno for 9.5) and max all other structures (~76k for 9.5).

    There are other configs, such as the premmie X.5 skrags mentioned, that rough a bit more and usually come into the X.5 stage with lower heroes/offense than a standard X.5. As 9.5s these usually enter th10 with 20/20 heroes and 68k-69k def weight and catch up heroes while adding new lab/camps/spells.

    So, the definition (at least for me) has changed over time.
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by TankSinatra View Post
    No point in fighting the tide though, now .5 means "no xbow(th9) no inferno (th10) no eagle(th11)" and you can add "transitional", "early", "heavy", "9.75" as further descriptions. Probably 99% of the people that throw around the term ".5" aren't using Hulk/Jake's definition. Including you - if you upgraded old defenses, you were straying from the Jake/Hulk path. Its just not the definition anyone uses anymore, but that's what it meant to Jake & Hulk three years ago. The idea came from the false premise that offense doesn't weigh anything. Note Hulk's 9.5 has 50+ blue walls but no new defenses dropped, nothing upgraded. Jake's idea was the same, he specifically says to build the things that have no weight, like clan castle, camps, spell factory (false but widely believed at the time). Anyone following a plan, dictated by weights and understanding of the matchmaker (even if flawed), is engineering. Around 1:10 from Jake's video - "now they can build their offense to the point where they can take out th10s but they are still being considered a th9 in the war matchmaker". No surprise they didn't call it engineering since the term wasn't in use yet, but that's definitely what we call it now. This is the same rationale, goal, and method that all 'defense light' engineers use, including defenseless.
    Some excellent (and fair) commentary here.
    I'd add a few little crumbs :-
    In respect to the historic videos I posted earlier, the term engineering was in full swing already :-
    Humbob (February 2015)https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...now-widespread

    In the words of one of our Martian friends in that thread (Feb 12th 2015):-
    "what OP is talking about is childish prattle. It is common practice and everyone uses it. Real engineering is yet to come. We have set up probably the first clan like that. If interested - click below for more info."
    ----
    Yikes!!!!

    Back in that era, there was a common belief that Gold Storage/Available loot was your "War Weight", hence the progression planning, but I agree totally that OH were building to a believed advantageous pre War starting point...and thus 'engineering' by definition.
    The reality that Jake genuinely believed that these 9.5s were still being considered a TH9 in the war matchmakers, says it all really.
    Players were upgrading offence power without seeing any conceivable change to their Gold Storages.... ahh!
    They also had a few 'low level' TH9s with max offence 30/30 Heroes in their clan at that time, for the reasons set out above.

    While I'm a bit of a purist, I do tend to agree with Tank however. The majority of players in 2018, just don't see X.5 in the way that Hulk/Jake viewed them back then.
    Maybe it's time to move on, and accept that we don't really need to buy CD's anymore!

    Quote Originally Posted by TankSinatra View Post
    Is that what you did though, while calling yourself a .5? Nothing on defense except walls, not even upgrading existing defenses?
    A great question indeed. (I've got my tin hat on already!!)
    Skrags following a X.5 progression path has historically been :-

    Step 1 - Max previous TH.
    Step 2 - Build Lab, Army Camps and traps, SF, CC etc
    Step 3 - Upgrade a key War troop, maybe 2
    Step 4 - Start building new defences and upgrading current ones.
    Step 5 - Assume I am no longer an X.5

    It would be quite correct to point out that my time of being an X.5 would quite possibly be shorter than some of those historic players, and hence I concede openly that I'm as guilty as anyone of muddying the waters of its definition!
    Last edited by Skrags; January 11th, 2018 at 04:45 PM.
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  8. #28
    Super Member Krzeng9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skrags View Post
    Outlined below are some historical outlines of X.5 that I posted many moons ago :-

    -----

    There's quite a lot of disjointed posts these days about X.5.

    The trouble is of course that :-
    1) The game moves on, and definitions sway/turn from it's origins.
    2) The term X.5 itself was originally defined by the (war) community itself, and as such is always subject to ambiguity, misinterpretation.


    Disclaimer :- The history of X.5 (and in particular 9.5) goes back well before the videos I have linked below.

    Lets go back to some easily identifiable historic information, as linked below :-

    1) Hulk Files (The Green Man) TH10 Progression 13th February 2015.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pxv6BjZg3w

    Hulk, one of the original innovators of TH9 War strategy attacks (in particular HoLo) showing his 9.5 progression base. From a fully maxed TH9 (with Maxed 30/30 Heroes and complete lava walls), he shows off is base upgrading farming and war troops, and Heroes, with no new defence buildings added. He has built his new traps.

    In the video, Hulk suggested he was going to make a manifesto video of TH9.5 progression, but as far as I'm aware, this video never saw the light of day, because Hulk quit the game shortly after, for "his own" reasons!

    2) Jake from OneHive Being a TownHall 9.5 in Clash 4th March 2015.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9U_Ta8SzftY

    Again, Jake goes through the potential benefits of TH9.5, no new defences added, but focus on offence to "build their offence up, to a point where they can take out TH10's, before they start building those TH10 defences"

    Note : At this point, lots (but not all) players believed that your Gold Storages was your war weight, which subsequently was shown to be false. Lots of Youtubers incorrectly published similar weight messages, but hey, I digress...

    To summarise these videos :-

    The whole point of 9.5, was to upgrade your TH10 Offence so that you were "capable" of 3 starring opponents TH10's. To do this you needed Max TH9 plus Heroes.
    TH9.5 was never a upgrade path with the focus on dipping, or 3 star TH9's. This is a common misconception

    Now, fast forward to post March 2016, where the MM changes pushed further focus on Offensive upgrading over defence, and we begin to see new progression paths :-

    a) The traditional fully max TH9s (with 30/30 Heroes and full lavas) upgrading TH10 offence, are still there. These players always intend to drop Infernos because, by definition, they are MAXERS!
    b) The 'Perma 9.5s' , with up to 40/40 Heroes up to full Offence. These players (pre October 2016) had no intention of building Infernos... ever. In fact often (but not always), they were Maxers turned ENGINEERS. In my opinion, this is where the whole 'X.5 is Engineering' debate began to gather speed, as the community began to see more and more of these bases.
    c) The 'Premmie 9.5' , a non maxed TH9 (with eg possibly 20/20 Heroes) RUSHING to TH10 to get those level 5 Valks etc for war. I like to refer to these players as TH9.25.

    In particular, if we consider c), the Premmie/Rushed 9.5s(9.25s), and compare them with the original historical concept of 9.5, there is quite a difference.

    The original concept or goal of a TH9.5 was taking out TH10's or other 9.5s, not dipping, or 2 starring mid TH10's with 20/20 Heroes.

    However, as I stated at the top of this post, the game moves on, and history becomes legend, and legend becomes myth, and....

    --------

    It should be noted that much of the above relates to certain clans and their own opinions, and whether some of these statements are really relevant to the average war participator is more than valid, but I hope this helps!
    Wow thanks for all the info!

    Is your combined storage or either gold or elixir really not your war weight? Never knew that.
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  9. #29
    Forum Elder SuperStorm103's Avatar
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    For the record, .5 has always meant leveling half your base. Most of the time people do the offensive half before adding defenses. This means you leave the defenses alone and only work offense.

    In short, until you are 100% maxed for your town hall level, you have to be labeled a .5 and you have to be labeled engineered (no matter the upgrade path) that is just how the game works since the addition of clan wars. Even if you drop all defenses ASAP, you are still engineered (defensively) and would be labeled a .5 engineer.

    It's a different strategy then multiplayer. Outside of war engineering does not technically exist.

    Currently with offense technically counting in war weight, the .5 path is not as effective as it used to be. So, adding minor defenses has been generally accepted as okay and hence the changing definition of .5.

    True 9.11's were Th9's with defenses at th11 levels and max offense. Again, people have generally accepted that it's okay to build all defenses except the big ones. 9.11 has evolved with the base progression.
    Last edited by SuperStorm103; January 11th, 2018 at 05:51 PM.
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by StormHeart View Post
    I've only read the first few answers and oh boy are they wrong.

    I'm sure someone has answered it by now but...

    A .5 is a base that has added NO new defenses at that TH level. Pretty simple.

    You can upgrade all old defenses but not add any new ones.

    You can add storages and other non-defenses bases but a fourth AD at TH9 is definitely not a .5 base.

    Is that engineered? To me, engineering is taking the .5 concept to a new level. I don't call those bases engineered myself but I can see where others might. I do disagree but I don't do it any more because you'll see more engineers if you do. At least that was our clan's experience. I used to be a big fan of .5s.

    The idea behind it is you can only lose three stars but you can gain six. Pretty much the idea behind engineering. I just don't do it any more. The purpose is to gain an advantage and it works but with engineers in the mix you'll probably see more of them. And, they are likely to have a much bigger advantage.
    Itís not that they are wrong, so much as that usage has shifted over time since ther term was coined. That happens with a lot of terms, including player defined ones in a shifting game environment. One factor in that shift is the build path you specify is less common than the ďjust donít build an xĒ path. Retaining the narrow old definition is just less handy than using the term with the new scope - thatís why people do it, not because they are wrong or fail to understand the first users had a very limited specific build in mind.
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