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  Click here to go to the first staff post in this thread.   Thread: SC are not tackling engineering

  1. #21
    Pro Member stealthmtn's Avatar
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    My clan has a similar clan build as OP. Many of my clan's X.5s refuse to adapt since they are casual players that have no understanding of the current mm, other than that they think our matches are bad.

    I think X.5s are a huge disadvantage to bring to war, whether they are used for transition purposes or the "perma-max" type. The issues with clans using X.5s are:

    1) There is no visibility on offensive weight. While we know how heavy an inferno is, we dont know how heavy an army camp is, let alone 4. Thus, I think the mm views X.5s as much more lopsided than actual players might. But, this is just my opinion.

    2) Multiple X.5s, specifically 9.5s, have a tendency to pull more 9.11s, even if the X.5 clan has no "buried" th11 attacks

    3) X.5 clans usually have high heroes. This - at least in my experience - causes the mm to compensate with an opponent with 1-2 eagles and/or 2-4 sets of infernos. While this I think is fair, when the opposition has also buried 2-3 warden attacks at lower def weights, you will see matchups with eagle, inferno, and gw disadvantages. But hey, youll have them beat on BK levels!

    People can call X.5 progression engineering, but it seems to me that its bad base progression/engineering now for war. Adding higher weight defenses after army camps finish seems to work better.

    Ill remain subborn with my 10.5 - but I acknowledge I am doing more harm than good for my clan.
    Last edited by stealthmtn; 1 Week Ago at 03:05 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ripple1972 View Post
    As self appointed overlord, please stop trying to use logic in all SC discussions.

  2.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by jawdrop6 View Post
    .5ís are FULL maxed out bases waiting for their next upgrade. Itís better for someone that is a fresh Th to not do that so they can COMPETE still and not be outmatched.
    Quote Originally Posted by jawdrop6 View Post
    Find a NEW way already to even out matchmaking. Over and over and over itís the same story in our wars.
    I just want to understand this a little bit. You're saying that the way your players have upgraded is better, because it allows them to compete without being "outmatched." Yet your whole complaint is that you're getting "outmatched" over and over. Am I the only one who sees the flaw in your conclusions? Maybe instead of waiting for the game to find a new way to "even out matchmaking," you should reassess your strategy.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2222 View Post
    What is disturbing about me saying using .5s increases the chance of an uneven match, .
    I was relating the phrase 'disturbing' in the context of the almost mass pile on/mud slinging at the OP, rather than the individual quotes. Please accept my apologies if it came across like that.

    The factoring and effect of X.5s seems to have moved left and right since the October 2016 update to varying feedback as you know.
    Everybody has different rosters, and different experiences, and seemingly different views about X.5.....

    As a 10.5 myself, I struggle sometimes not to react, when I see lots of assumptions about X.5 = Engineering, therefore by definition, I'm an Engineer, but this is nothing new.
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skrags View Post
    I was relating the phrase 'disturbing' in the context of the almost mass pile on/mud slinging at the OP, rather than the individual quotes. Please accept my apologies if it came across like that.

    The factoring and effect of X.5s seems to have moved left and right since the October 2016 update to varying feedback as you know.
    Everybody has different rosters, and different experiences, and seemingly different views about X.5.....

    As a 10.5 myself, I struggle sometimes not to react, when I see lots of assumptions about X.5 = Engineering, therefore by definition, I'm an Engineer, but this is nothing new.
    When you upgrade with the MM in mind, you are engineering. The only difference is the degree of engineering....some people take it too far. People should stop thinking of engineering as an insulting or dirty word. Would you do the X.5 route if the MM guaranteed a perfect TH to TH match? No, you would drop your heavy defenses within the first week you finish upgrading to a new TH.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Chang405 View Post
    When you upgrade with the MM in mind, you are engineering. The only difference is the degree of engineering....some people take it too far. People should stop thinking of engineering as an insulting or dirty word. Would you do the X.5 route if the MM guaranteed a perfect TH to TH match? No, you would drop your heavy defenses within the first week you finish upgrading to a new TH.
    Thats a pretty loose definition of engineering. Its like putting rushers and premie in same category as "rushers". Though i agree to some extent. The big difference is that X.5s are used so that you are not a burden on your clan and can pull your weight while the "engineering" most refer to as an issue is mostly done by finding loopholes in MM algorithm to get advantage.
    Last edited by akshay180496; 1 Week Ago at 04:29 PM.
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by akshay180496 View Post
    Thats a pretty loose definition of engineering. Its like putting rushers and premie in same category as "rushers". Though i agree to some extent. The big difference is that X.5s are used so that you are not a burden on your clan and can pull your weight while the "engineering" most refer to as an issue is mostly done by finding loopholes in MM algorithm to get advantage.
    Pull your weight is pretty subjective though. For me, there isn't much of a difference between not being a burden and seeking an advantage. In a perfect MM world one sides X.5 would draw a similar X.5. But in the "good old days" X.5s could get matched to a TH one level below it thereby giving the X.5 the advantage.

  7. #27
    Pro Member stealthmtn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chang405 View Post
    When you upgrade with the MM in mind, you are engineering. The only difference is the degree of engineering....some people take it too far. People should stop thinking of engineering as an insulting or dirty word. Would you do the X.5 route if the MM guaranteed a perfect TH to TH match? No, you would drop your heavy defenses within the first week you finish upgrading to a new TH.
    So, only blatant disregard for the weight system is the only way to not engineer? Every upgrade - offensive and defensive - carries weight and thus influences how the mm handles ones base and handles the clan. Therefore, the only people that don't engineer are those who don't war.

    I, for one, would still hold off on dropping defenses in a pure th-matching system. As a X.5, I expect to pull another th11 when I have completed enough offensive upgrades. I think a pure th matching system could potentially give a huge advantage to X.5s - it did back prior to the release of th11.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ripple1972 View Post
    As self appointed overlord, please stop trying to use logic in all SC discussions.

  8. #28
    Forum Elder TankSinatra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by akshay180496 View Post
    Thats a pretty loose definition of engineering. Its like putting rushers and premie in same category as "rushers". Though i agree to some extent. The big difference is that X.5s are used so that you are not a burden on your clan and can pull your weight while the "engineering" most refer to as an issue is mostly done by finding loopholes in MM algorithm to get advantage.
    It's the only definition that makes any sense.
    But going with your idea of "exploiting MM loopholes", Xbows are heavier than they should be so skipping them due to the weight is using a MM loophole. Infernos are heavier than they should be, so skipping them due to the weight is using a MM loophole. Eagles too.

    From there going 9.11, or skipping mortars is a difference in degree. You can call ".5" a sensible upgrade path if you like, but then its fair to call more extreme engineering versions just a little more sensible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chang405 View Post
    People should stop thinking of engineering as an insulting or dirty word.
    Exactly. People running .5s go through an impressive amount of mental gymnastics to avoid the label, since they think there's something wrong with what they're doing.
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  9. #29
    Forum Elder TankSinatra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthmtn View Post
    So, only blatant disregard for the weight system is the only way to not engineer? Every upgrade - offensive and defensive - carries weight and thus influences how the mm handles ones base and handles the clan. Therefore, the only people that don't engineer are those who don't war.
    "Blatant disregard for the weight system" described the vast majority of players for the first couple years of clan wars. Might still in fact, outside of the war forum (now the majority of clans have some engineers, but that could be 5 bases out of 30). Everybody planning out their upgrades based on expected MM effect is engineering to some degree.
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  10. #30
    Forum Elder TankSinatra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skrags View Post
    As a 10.5 myself, I struggle sometimes not to react, when I see lots of assumptions about X.5 = Engineering, therefore by definition, I'm an Engineer, but this is nothing new.
    Ever notice we keep having this discussion (of whether .5s are engineering) in the context of someone running a white-walled, no-eagle, close to offense max base?
    Last edited by TankSinatra; 1 Week Ago at 04:51 PM.
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