War MM & Cannon Cart changes - the FEEDBACK thread!

[OnyxDS]

Hey Bigtone, what you define as "engineered" may not be with the system defines as engineered. If you ask me, a th11 with a level 11 GW isn't new. That's someone "engineering" to gain an advantage. Just saying.

Also, you may have some peeps in yu our clan who might be new to their respective town hall but a matchmaking system can and won't decipher who is new to a level and who isn't. All it will see is a th10 without infernoes and decipher that as "engineering".

It's not a fun thing to have to figure out and play with but it's all we have for now. You might want to consider changing your lineup to people with all defenses built for their respective level.

The trouble with this theory is how elastic these definitions are. For example, today, from the feedback thread in the wars section, a non-engineered clan saying how the MM is much better because they don't match engineered clans any more:

Before MM improvement we had had two wars against heavily engineered clans, now, we have 2 consecutive wars against pretty balanced opponents. We are not an engineered clan and we tend to max all the defences and walls before upgrading the TH.
The algorithm is, for now, pretty well.
We have 2 th11 w/o EA (but maximizing everything and they would put the EA soon), two th10 (one w IT, the other will put them soon), many 9s (with everything) and many lower ths.
Usually we do between 90 an 97% in wars, usually 26/29 stars.

But... if you read it closely they have more x.5s than Bigtone. People are cherry-picking what they want to look at to try to get behind this "a single x.5 makes you engineered" idea. There are so many counter-examples being posted if you look at the details.

If a "non-engineered" clan says they are matching well, people accept it (not looking at their x.5s). If a "non-engineered" clan is matching badly people dig until they find the x.5 or gap in the roster, and it's proof that engineered matches engineered.

[Bigtone2001]

The trouble with this theory is how elastic these definitions are. For example, today, from the feedback thread in the wars section, a non-engineered clan saying how the MM is much better because they don't match engineered clans any more:



But... if you read it closely they have more x.5s than Bigtone. People are cherry-picking what they want to look at to try to get behind this "a single x.5 makes you engineered" idea. There are so many counter-examples being posted if you look at the details.

If a "non-engineered" clan says they are matching well, people accept it (not looking at their x.5s). If a "non-engineered" clan is matching badly people dig until they find the x.5 or gap in the roster, and it's proof that engineered matches engineered.

Weve never had easy match ups, as our top 4 are maxed and the next couple are not far off. As a clan we have always advised maxing each TH before moving up.
standard upgrade route is, camps, lab, cc, spell factory, storages, then to build any new walls and new low level defences, then the big ones.
we have turned away th11s wanting to join us who don't have strong defences.

SC need to do something when a TH11 with maxed troops is matching a TH9.
Our latest match up gives them 20 extra Max TH11 attacks!!

[southmunroe4827]

The trouble with this theory is how elastic these definitions are. For example, today, from the feedback thread in the wars section, a non-engineered clan saying how the MM is much better because they don't match engineered clans any more:



But... if you read it closely they have more x.5s than Bigtone. People are cherry-picking what they want to look at to try to get behind this "a single x.5 makes you engineered" idea. There are so many counter-examples being posted if you look at the details.

If a "non-engineered" clan says they are matching well, people accept it (not looking at their x.5s). If a "non-engineered" clan is matching badly people dig until they find the x.5 or gap in the roster, and it's proof that engineered matches engineered.

After two lopsided matches warring with two 9.5s and two 8.5s in our lineup vs heavily engineered clans, I decided to run a "pure" war to test the theory of .5s being considered engineered by SC. No .5s. No engineered bases of any kind in my lineup. After 22 minutes of searching, we received this gem;

US
#1- Max th9, 26/30 heroes #2- Max th9, 25/26
#3- Max th9, 29-21 #4- Max th9 with some lvl 9 walls, 17/22
#5- Max th9 with some lvl 9 walls, 15/20 #6- Max th9 with some lvl 9 walls, 18/18
#7- Near max th9, 16/16 #8- Max th8
#9- Near max th8 #10- Middle off and def th8
#11- New th8(th7 def and off) #12- Max th7
#13- Near max th7 #14- New th6(was max th5)
#15- New th5(was max th4)

THEM

#1- th11 Near max off, NO eagle, all other def dropped and at max th10, lvl 3 infernos, 4 lvl 4 xbows, 25/35/10 heroes
#2- Max th9 except witch and lvl 8, 9 and 10 walls 10/8 heroes
#3- Max th9 except witch and lvl 8+ walls 10/7
#4- Max th9 except witch and lvl 8+ walls 10/8
#5- Max th9 except a few troops and lvl 8+ walls 10/8
#6- Near max th9 off, th8 def except lvl 7 ad, lvl 1 bows 10/10
#7- Near max th9 off, th8 def, lvl 1 bows 10/9
#8- Rushed th9, th7-th8 def, no bows, max th9 drag, lightning and rage 6/1
#9 and #10- Rushed th8 with lvl 3 drags
#11- Near defenseless th8(probably dropped and gemmed some def after this update) lvl 3 drags and lvl 5 lightning
#12- Max th5
#13 through #15- Two rushed th5 and a rushed th6

I welcome and implore any mod or SC staff member to join my clan and verify the information provided. PM me and I will give you the clan details. We are 3 hours into prep right now. I assume the disparity in heroes primarily is what landed us this match up. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying this war is unwinnable by any means. Actually, I am pretty confident in the win. We run original th9 base designs and our def is almost always on point when defending against fellow th9s. But really? Is this what SC had in mind as an improvement? Damn near max th10.5 vs th9? Free 6 stars and our top 2 bases knocked off by someone attacking two th lvls down? SC, STOP defending engineered players and engineered clans. NO, it is not a "play style" crafted out of thin air, it is merely a product of a deeply flawed MM system used to gain a tactical advantage. The common theme seems to be that these people are cash cows and the old proverbial "don't bite the hand that feeds you" comes in to play, but guess what? It takes a lot more gems and time to max a base then it does to create a defensless th11 with max drags and lightning.

What about this matchup? There is no possible way to put any kind of spin on this matchup, it is just trash. No, we aren't roster engineering, they aren't dead bases at the bottom. We are a clan that tries to help and build new players. Max th11 troops with a lvl 10 GW vs a max th9 at the top is absolutely absurd no matter what the rest of the war looks like. The message that this war sends me is maxing your base and heroes at a given th IS NOT a good option anymore.

[scottCOCForum]

It seems a little bit better, but not really all that different. Hero level and walls still seem to be under weighted. In a 10 on 10 match up if one side has 3 or 4 bases with 40+ heroes and the other side has just one, you pretty much know what's going to happen. Also bases with all lava walls seemed to be rated pretty much on par with bases with walls two levels below lava. It does seem like inferno towers and crossbows are now weighted less, which is good because they were way over weighted before. We were intentionally not building them, but have started to add them again. It's also hard to evaluate because its a black box and as your win streak increases you get harder match-ups. It is hard to know if the MM is just broken, or the MM is intentionally giving you an unfair match up because you just won 7 in a row. It would be nice if the War MM yielded a "score" so we could see if a match up is supposed to be a challenge, or fair.

[JSpur5]

The trouble with this theory is how elastic these definitions are. For example, today, from the feedback thread in the wars section, a non-engineered clan saying how the MM is much better because they don't match engineered clans any more:



But... if you read it closely they have more x.5s than Bigtone. People are cherry-picking what they want to look at to try to get behind this "a single x.5 makes you engineered" idea. There are so many counter-examples being posted if you look at the details.

If a "non-engineered" clan says they are matching well, people accept it (not looking at their x.5s). If a "non-engineered" clan is matching badly people dig until they find the x.5 or gap in the roster, and it's proof that engineered matches engineered.

I'm not saying the .5s are generating an inconsistent war search. What I am suggesting is if you want a more fair matchup then run full defensive bases in your lineup even leaving out the bases "new" to that town hall.

As far as 9s generating a th11 opponent, look at it this way. If you have 4 max 9s and then you throw in some .5s and a defenseless or 2 you might get matched with some engineered 11s without an EA and max troops. Offensive weight seems to have been minimized by this new system. So if you have one base that could be considered engineered you're gonna get matched to an engineered clan. At that point, now it's TOTAL WAR WEIGHT regardless of your th9 against th11. Someone just out engineered you is all.

[OnyxDS]

I'm not saying the .5s are generating an inconsistent war search. What I am suggesting is if you want a more fair matchup then run full defensive bases in your lineup even leaving out the bases "new" to that town hall.

You must have missed cnaf's match: 6 max TH11s against 12 (no engineered bases either side - CWL clans); emphatic fury had 5 TH11 vs 14. Not sure what was consistent or fair about those matches.

As far as 9s generating a th11 opponent, look at it this way. If you have 4 max 9s and then you throw in some .5s and a defenseless or 2 you might get matched with some engineered 11s without an EA and max troops. Offensive weight seems to have been minimized by this new system. So if you have one base that could be considered engineered you're gonna get matched to an engineered clan. At that point, now it's TOTAL WAR WEIGHT regardless of your th9 against th11. Someone just out engineered you is all.

Again with the one base triggers an engineered match; despite all the people reporting non-engineered clans matching engineered clans, such as the post 2 above yours; and engineers claiming they've matched squeaky clean clans.

[Despotic]

It is good search time has just increased.

[JSpur5]

You must have missed cnaf's match: 6 max TH11s against 12 (no engineered bases either side - CWL clans); emphatic fury had 5 TH11 vs 14. Not sure what was consistent or fair about those matches.



Again with the one base triggers an engineered match; despite all the people reporting non-engineered clans matching engineered clans, such as the post 2 above yours; and engineers claiming they've matched squeaky clean clans.

Don't mince my words please. I said earlier that we don't have a definition of what the war search is. The person 2 posts above mine said they had no engineered bases in the lineup but how do you know that someone new to a town hall and doesn't have the defense of that town hall isn't being considered by the algorithm as being engineered? We may not consider it by our definition to be engineered but the algorithm might.

None of us know for sure what the system is or how it's being matched. We all do know it's flawed in some way and by my own observations, the best way to get a fair matchup is to leave out any base that may be new, .5, minimax or whatever you want to call them and just run a war with straight up town halls having ALL defenses.

[Bigtone2001]

Don't mince my words please. I said earlier that we don't have a definition of what the war search is. The person 2 posts above mine said they had no engineered bases in the lineup but how do you know that someone new to a town hall and doesn't have the defense of that town hall isn't being considered by the algorithm as being engineered? We may not consider it by our definition to be engineered but the algorithm might.

None of us know for sure what the system is or how it's being matched. We all do know it's flawed in some way and by my own observations, the best way to get a fair matchup is to leave out any base that may be new, .5, minimax or whatever you want to call them and just run a war with straight up town halls having ALL defenses.

We we accept when someone has just upgraded to a new TH, they may draw a higher opponent.
We have been out numbered on 11s & 10s for a while, but things are way worse under the new system.
If SC don't want to put a high weight basis on the TH, why don't they rank war by Offensive weight (seeing as you get 2 attacks)(also given someone with Max troops should be matched against a Max defence base, not a TH9)

Any which way we look at this SC know how to solve the engineering, they just seem reluctant to do it.

[2222]

None of us know for sure what the system is or how it's being matched.

So if you have one base that could be considered engineered you're gonna get matched to an engineered clan. At that point, now it's TOTAL WAR WEIGHT regardless of your th9 against th11.

I agree with the first statement quoted here, which makes it impossible for me to agree with your second one, at least when it is stated as though it is factual.