War MM & Cannon Cart changes - the FEEDBACK thread!

[Gorbash098]

I'm aware of the complaints regarding the communication issues and I agree with most, gameplay mechanics etc. need to be communicated but when there is something that is hidden from us (for good reason presumably) that they are 'improving', why do we need to know, we can't see what they've done, only that they have failed in their expressed intent. Wouldn't it to be better to think they are 'constantly improving it' rather than to have expectations built up and dashed all the time The only people that benefit from knowing there is a change is the people that are trying to 'game' it. Keep them in the dark too I say.

I do not know that they have failed. There are clans out there that are getting better match ups since the update. To them the update was not a failure. I know this because a couple of the clans that I am in have been getting good matches where there are no significant advantage on either side. I also know that the forum is filled with complaints about mismatches and its hard to ignore them. However, there are arguments on both sides as to whether or not they truly did get a mismatch. So, I am not saying that they failed or succeed. I do believe them when they say that this is a work in progress and further adjustments need to be made.

[Lunaticfringe]

.5 IS engineering.

Now, that may not be your intent, but the match maker has no way to judge your intent. Yes, it was previously a smart upgrade path, but under the new MM, it seems that is no longer the case.

The MM simply looks at the bases in your war search and does it's checks: TH9? Check. Upgraded Troops/Heros/Camps/Spells? Check. Upgraded defences? Che........ALERT ALERT NO X-BOWS!!! ENGINEER ENGINEER!!! Of course that's oversimplifying it, but it doesn't know what your intent is with that base, it only knows what it sees, and in its eyes a base w/o the defences built = engineered.

Also this isn't new, .5 have been considered engineering by the MM for a long time, just seems under the new MM it's much more egregious.

I don't necessarily disagree with what you say above, but it does make one raise an eyebrow. One should be allowed a reasonable upgrade path that doesn't involve just plopping all defenses down immediately, lest you get labeled an engineer in the MM. Heck, you literally couldn't anyways, as that's the point of the game---to collect resources and build your TH.

It seems to me the MM should measure the gap between offense vs. defense and the bigger the gap, the more the weight assigned to the TH. 0.5 could get some of a ding, but a full-blown, defenseless TH11 (or whatever) should get a much larger ding

[2222]

Except that the last time SC was transparent with MM, engineering started. If they make the algorithm and how it is weighted public, players will only seek ways to undermine it and take advantage of holes rather than simply understanding match-ups.

Engineering existed before they gave any details (and the details they did give weren't very detailed), but I agree they don't necessarily need to publish the exact weights and how it works. However, some information so players know what they need to do to get even matches would be nice. Also, if they go a more simple route like a minimum weight or weight tax, that they definitely could specifically tell us about.

If they think engineers are gemmers then it would stand to reason that the best way to get them to gem more would be to make maxing an advantage in war. We have got to the saturation point on engineers I would imagine. Giving them a disadvantage now would make them gem their bases to max?

I disagree with those that think a good engineered base costs more gems than a good maxed base, but I agree with you that encouraging a change would result in gem use. That is one reason I think SC should drop the hammer on engineeres, but give a warning of several months.

Engineering : upgrading your th before maxing the previous one defensive wise while (nearly -read: war troops-) maxing offense.
Rushing: upgrading your th before maxing the previous one defensive AND offensive wise.
0.5: smart planning on upgrading and building new defenses AFTER maxing previous TH (offense and defense)

That smart planning you are talking about is intentionally leaving defenses behind because you think it is better for war to do that. That is engineering. There are many forms and that is one of them. When I moved to th11, despite being in legends, I didn't build my eagle until it was the last thing. I upgraded all my th10 stuff before building any new th11 stuff. It was the classic .5 path and I did it for one reason and one reason only: I thought I was engineering a war advantage. If it wasn't for war, I would've build the eagle and other defenses immediately.

[Lunaticfringe]

Engineering : upgrading your th before maxing the previous one defensive wise while (nearly -read: war troops-) maxing offense.
Rushing: upgrading your th before maxing the previous one defensive AND offensive wise.
0.5: smart planning on upgrading and building new defenses AFTER maxing previous TH (offense and defense)

What makes you think that is the generally-accepted definition of engineering?

I don't think you will find most people agreeing with said definition.

[2222]

I don't necessarily disagree with what you say above, but it does make one raise an eyebrow. One should be allowed a reasonable upgrade path that doesn't involve just plopping all defenses down immediately, lest you get labeled an engineer in the MM. Heck, you literally couldn't anyways, as that's the point of the game---to collect resources and build your TH.

It seems to me the MM should measure the gap between offense vs. defense and the bigger the gap, the more the weight assigned to the TH. 0.5 could get some of a ding, but a full-blown, defenseless TH11 (or whatever) should get a much larger ding

I agree. There is a big difference between saying .5 is a form of engineering vs. saying .5 should be treated the same by the matchmaker as all other forms. I don't know that it is, but many have been reporting that they get the sense that .5s are being treated very harshly by the matchmaker.

[2222]

What makes you think that is the generally-accepted definition of engineering?

I don't think you will find most people agreeing with said definition.

In my experience, those who don't want to admit .5 is a form of engineering are those who have said engineering is dirty, evil and dishonorable, while at the same time have themselves tried to gain a war advantage by not building new defenses until their offense is very high. An 8.5 that says .5 isn't engineering often thinks it is perfectly fine to drop 4 zaps and 2 quakes on a max th8 and faceroll it with dragons, but thinks the defenseless base is a cheater. I take a more practical view: if you intentionally upgrade in a way that you think the matchmaker favors, you are engineering, especially if it isn't also an advantage in mutliplayer. But, then, I also don't think "engineer" is a dirty word or even an insult (other than perhaps roster engineering...).

[Tomville]

You left out a third one. Maxer clans facing bigger maxer clans. In other words- a maxer clan with say a 6/12/9s spread pairing with a maxer clan of 12/8/9s.

So SC has hit the trifecta.

But WHY are these matches happening? I agree that they are, but I honestly am not sure I understand why. The MMA obviously sees these two clans as equal, but we do not. What is the MMA looking at differently than we are.

One theory that I am trying to compile evidence to support/disprove is that (in response to player demand for more weight for warden???) they have greatly increased the weight of all heroes. The warden still seems to be out of whack. However, in some cases, when I look at the details it seems that the clan with the obvious offense AND defense advantage, has a slight hero disadvantage. It appears, in the limited number of cases that I have seen, that there is a trend of BK/AQ weight seems to be offsetting higher troops and higher defenses. In these cases it does not appear to be justified. That is, in practice, it would not actually balance the scale that having a few extra BK levels on average would make up for facing higher level troops and next TH level defenses. I am nowhere near enough evidence to say this is the likely culprit, but it does need more study.

I don't think you need to go so far as thinking they have changed the weights on heros to explain it. It only needs offence to be counting more than it did (we know it does, they said so), plus that the 10s be big hero 10s and the enemy 11s (not only the 10s mirrors, it can spread further up the line as an average) to have more modest early-mid 30s kings and queens (rather than 40 or bigger), some non-war significant troop upgrades neglected (just a few, not highly manicured), plus the already allowable % difference for a match to come in as in the allowable range to the matchmaker.

For example, one of our matches was our 11 th 11 and 4 th10 matching enemy 14 th11 and 1 th10. The total heros were 633/640/220 vs 564/609/256. The total defence weights by gold were 1550k vs 1594k. On paper that doesn't look so bad or one might even think "well I would like those heros", but in reality it's enemy with 6 extra th11 warden attacks, 3 extra eagle artilleries (2 at level 2), 2 extra sets of max infernos and max xbows.

What happens is the gap between the 89k defence weight 40/40 hero th10 and the 30/30/20 105k th11 closes too much when the offence factors more, so where before that th10 might some of the time (say 1 match in 4) face a 100k th11 now it is repeatedly facing 105k or so bigger ones. And since I'd suspect there are more hero in progress th11s out there than big hero big th10s, so that is all you need to end up on the "losing" end of that deal repeatedly as a clan with big hero th10s - they don't need to have changed any hero weights for it to happen, just to have changed what they said they did in putting more emphasis on the existing offence weight in the matching calculation (including those big heros).

[Pono]

8.5 is no longer a route anymore. New Th9’s can’t stay in war and grind heroes anymore. You go 8.5, even if you’re the only one in the lineup, your clan will match a heavily engineered clan. Now we are forced to drop xbows with level 10/1 heroes.

[Pono]

That is the point though. We want regular matches. I know it’s hard for some players to start dropping the new defenses.

[JSpur5]

en•gi•neer•ing (ˌɛn dʒəˈnɪər ɪŋ)

n.
1. the practical application of science and mathematics, as in the design and construction of machines, vehicles, structures, roads, and systems.
2. the action, work, or profession of an engineer.
3. skillful or artful contrivance or manipulation

Got this from the dictionary. Pay attention to #3. If you are MANIPULATING and doing upgrades in such a way to minimize war weight... it's engineering.

.5 is just as much engineering as anything else.

There you go, problem solved.