War MM & Cannon Cart changes - the FEEDBACK thread!

[VicThorious]

Pretty sure they have been clear, i.e. if you try to game the MM system you will be matched with another clan that tried to game the MM system. Seems that they did a better job of it than you.

You need to decide how it is you want to win wars, by gaming the MM system (if so, you need to get better at it!) or by being better at attacking with a balanced matchup (if so, you need to drop the defenses for your TH level)

I haven't updated my signature for a long time but I'm close to max def except for the EA which I'll do at the end. I'm OK to be matched against a high level th11. Actually our clan always has EA deficit which is overcome by our higher level heroes. I'm not OK when the opponent has more EAs and defenceless bases that crush our higher level bases with spam attacks. Heavily engineered clans should be the ones to be penalized

[xc3ss1v30n3]

After a few wars, I must say this new mm is terrible. We are not engineered, but do have several .5s . We have been matched with clans that engineer to the extreme. Defenseless th11s with max troops throughout the roster, etc. Last few wars have resulted in 3 perfect wars against us, 1 win, 2 losses by 1 star and a perfect war tie. I must say in our case we definately preferred the old system, it seemed much more balanced and we won\lost by skill rather than a lopsided match.

You are engineered. I just took a gander at your clan and literally the top 7 bases (I didn't bother clicking through any further, cause I get the point) are engineered to some extent. .5 is still engineering even if you want to call it something else. As soon as I read "perfect war," I knew engineering was involved because those don't happen against non-engineered clans (or at least very rarely).

In this case, the MM is working as it should. Matching engineered clans against engineered clans.

[Prince1999]

Another war spin for us, maxer style clans, 1 hour 10 mins search, 13 th11 and 2 th10 matched 15 th11, the smallest of which has level 2 eagle, 2 level 4 infernos and 30/34/11... the only one of theirs lacking a max warden, and bigger than all our bottom 4. Did someone declare big 10s = huge 11s when we weren't looking?

If this is a trend for you, and it is a trend for your opponents to get clans like you, then why? What is it about the makeup of each that causes the MM to decide you are a fit?

I think it's more likely a side effect of putting more significance on offence, as it happens most with big hero 10s that seem to match big 11s with some king/queen neglect. Seems like when the warden isn't carrying a great weight and only 1-2 troops really need one level of upgrade for war, the offence gap between them closes too far.

I think this is the cause of many maxer clans' problems. The MMA is counting their offense (all troops upgraded at every TH level = high weight). It is counting the engineered offense (single path upgraded, no upgrades for other troops = lower weight). The system only cares about the total number at the bottom of the column.

the problem I see mostly is the non-engineered clans still being matched up against engineered clans.

These light weight th11 + warder have been our biggest problem since the update.

The last 3 wars we have had have been terribly lopsided. I'm in a non engineered clan and we have been getting matched against heavily engineered clans. Usually we run with 1 TH11 (mid level), 2 TH10s, 4 or 5 TH9.5 (building to full TH10), and the rest TH9. Enemy clan will always have more TH11 bases than us, plus engineered 11s. Last match they had 2 max TH11s vs our 1. Then a max TH10, maxed 9.5s, 1 engineered TH11, and 2 or 3 true TH9s. Of course we got smacked. New matchup, to me, needs a lot of work.

This is the trend that is starting to become apparent. If a maxer clan of 5 x TH11 (let's say for sake of argument 100k offense average), 10 x TH10 (80k offense average) and 15 x TH9 (65k offense average) has a total offense rating of 2275. The system finds them a clan with similar offense weight, but only single path upgraded on all but the two anchor bases. They might look like: 2 x TH11 maxed (110k offense weight each) 20 x TH11 engineered (75k offense weight average) and 8 x TH10 (65k offense weight average). The system sees the maxer clan as having a narrow advantage, but close enough to match them. In reality...

Maxer = 5 x TH11, 10 x TH10, 15 x TH9
Engineer = 2 TH11 maxed + 20 x TH11 engineered, 8 x TH10 engineered

The system sees it as an acceptable match, but clearly it is a huge mismatch. The problem is that it is counting ALL of the offense for the maxer, even though not all troops will be used in war. For the single path engineer, they can still attack with a max TH11 LALOON, or Miner, or whatever path they have chosen. However, they are not paying offensive weight for troops that will not be used in the attack.

The problem is that currently, a TH11, fully capable of conducting an attack with max TH11 troops and heroes, can minimize their weight in other areas and appear to the MMA to be similar in offensive weight to a TH10 or lower. The solution is that the offensive weight needs to be calculated based upon levels. This is very similar to the TH minimum weight concept that has been offered for defense. Every new TH11 would have a minimum offensive weight equal to the maximum available weight of a TH10. Then they would add weight based upon upgrades. For example, once all offensive buildings are upgraded (lab + spell factories) add 3k. Once the warden is built, add another 3k. Once the lab upgrades enough troops and spells to conduct a TH11 attack add another 3k. Additionally, add weight for hero levels. The total of these components would be adjusted to equal the total offensive weight between TH10 and max TH11.

[xc3ss1v30n3]

If this is a trend for you, and it is a trend for your opponents to get clans like you, then why? What is it about the makeup of each that causes the MM to decide you are a fit?



I think this is the cause of many maxer clans' problems. The MMA is counting their offense (all troops upgraded at every TH level = high weight). It is counting the engineered offense (single path upgraded, no upgrades for other troops = lower weight). The system only cares about the total number at the bottom of the column.







This is the trend that is starting to become apparent. If a maxer clan of 5 x TH11 (let's say for sake of argument 100k offense average), 10 x TH10 (80k offense average) and 15 x TH9 (65k offense average) has a total offense rating of 2275. The system finds them a clan with similar offense weight, but only single path upgraded on all but the two anchor bases. They might look like: 2 x TH11 maxed (110k offense weight each) 20 x TH11 engineered (75k offense weight average) and 8 x TH10 (65k offense weight average). The system sees the maxer clan as having a narrow advantage, but close enough to match them. In reality...

Maxer = 5 x TH11, 10 x TH10, 15 x TH9
Engineer = 2 TH11 maxed + 20 x TH11 engineered, 8 x TH10 engineered

The system sees it as an acceptable match, but clearly it is a huge mismatch. The problem is that it is counting ALL of the offense for the maxer, even though not all troops will be used in war. For the single path engineer, they can still attack with a max TH11 LALOON, or Miner, or whatever path they have chosen. However, they are not paying offensive weight for troops that will not be used in the attack.

The problem is that currently, a TH11, fully capable of conducting an attack with max TH11 troops and heroes, can minimize their weight in other areas and appear to the MMA to be similar in offensive weight to a TH10 or lower. The solution is that the offensive weight needs to be calculated based upon levels. This is very similar to the TH minimum weight concept that has been offered for defense. Every new TH11 would have a minimum offensive weight equal to the maximum available weight of a TH10. Then they would add weight based upon upgrades. For example, once all offensive buildings are upgraded (lab + spell factories) add 3k. Once the warden is built, add another 3k. Once the lab upgrades enough troops and spells to conduct a TH11 attack add another 3k. Additionally, add weight for hero levels. The total of these components would be adjusted to equal the total offensive weight between TH10 and max TH11.

This guy gets it. Supercell, please hire him. Well said.

[Creatine]

You are engineered. I just took a gander at your clan and literally the top 7 bases (I didn't bother clicking through any further, cause I get the point) are engineered to some extent. .5 is still engineering even if you want to call it something else. As soon as I read "perfect war," I knew engineering was involved because those don't happen against non-engineered clans (or at least very rarely).

In this case, the MM is working as it should. Matching engineered clans against engineered clans.

I guess .5s are now seen as engineers, though I was once a valid upgrade path. It is a big difference from max offense\low defense bases we have been facing last few wars. I wish SC would be more transparent regarding what they prioritize in mm. It seems they want you to drop new defenses when reaching a new townhall rather than focus on offense. Ill get the clan, including myself to build new defenses.

[xc3ss1v30n3]

I guess .5s are now seen as engineers, though I was once a valid upgrade path. It is a big difference from max offense\low defense bases we have been facing last few wars. I wish SC would be more transparent regarding what they prioritize in mm. It seems they want you to drop new defenses when reaching a new townhall rather than focus on offense. Ill get the clan, including myself to build new defenses.

It's a semantics thing as far as the community is concerned, but for SC it's not. .5 was the original engineer. It wasn't until the defenseless bases or bases such as 8.11, 9.11, etc started showing up that people started labeling .5 as only "weight-minded" upgrading or something similar. But, in the eyes of SC, it's still engineered no matter how it's sugar-coated because, as you stated, SC wants the new defenses on the ground and upgrading along side of offense.

Of course, if the new MM system is what they say and offense is being weighed as much or (hopefully) more than defense, then .5's are no longer engineered.

[cnaf]

I guess .5s are now seen as engineers, though I was once a valid upgrade path. It is a big difference from max offense\low defense bases we have been facing last few wars. I wish SC would be more transparent regarding what they prioritize in mm. It seems they want you to drop new defenses when reaching a new townhall rather than focus on offense. Ill get the clan, including myself to build new defenses.

To be honest, .5's were seen as engineered after the last MM update. It hit them pretty hard. I agree there is a difference between a .5 and a defenseless TH11- but not all share that same opinion.

.5 is a valid upgrade path, but it was evident after the last MM tweak that after you reached a certain threshold with your offense- it was no longer simply about valid or smart progression. In other words, if you are a TH10 and have most/all of your offensive troops maxed, your heroes at 40/40...and have yet to upgrade a single defense or even drop an inferno tower- well yeah you are not simply upgrading with offense in mind. You are upgrading with MM in mind. SC seemed to follow that logic, and hit the heavy .5 clans hard. Real hard. If you had weak heroes and were going that same .5 route (no defense upgrades or the infernoes/EA's), well you probably didn't notice the change so much.

[2222]

You are engineered. I just took a gander at your clan and literally the top 7 bases (I didn't bother clicking through any further, cause I get the point) are engineered to some extent. .5 is still engineering even if you want to call it something else. As soon as I read "perfect war," I knew engineering was involved because those don't happen against non-engineered clans (or at least very rarely).

In this case, the MM is working as it should. Matching engineered clans against engineered clans.

Unfortunately, what I gather so far is engineers are matching engineers and facing uneven matches. Maxers are also still facing engineers with an uneven match, although possibly less often than before. To me, this isn't good enough. If engineers are going to randomly get bad matches, then there is no point to engineer and SC should just implement a fix that totally nerfs engineering and get on with it, especially since maxers are still matching engineers.

I guess .5s are now seen as engineers, though I was once a valid upgrade path. It is a big difference from max offense\low defense bases we have been facing last few wars. I wish SC would be more transparent regarding what they prioritize in mm. It seems they want you to drop new defenses when reaching a new townhall rather than focus on offense. Ill get the clan, including myself to build new defenses.

They have always been engineers. That is the purpose of making a .5. However, there are different types of engineering and it is a problem if the matchmaker is treating them all the same (I don't know that it is).

[cnaf]

Unfortunately, what I gather so far is engineers are matching engineers and facing uneven matches. Maxers are also still facing engineers with an uneven match, although possibly less often than before. To me, this isn't good enough.

You left out a third one. Maxer clans facing bigger maxer clans. In other words- a maxer clan with say a 6/12/9s spread pairing with a maxer clan of 12/8/9s.

So SC has hit the trifecta.

[xc3ss1v30n3]

To me, this isn't good enough. If engineers are going to randomly get bad matches, then there is no point to engineer and SC should just implement a fix that totally nerfs engineering and get on with it, especially since maxers are still matching engineers.

I totally agree. As a clan of maxers facing engineers for the last 4 wars, what they're doing definitely isn't good enough. Neither are unbalanced engineer vs engineer matches. To this day, I feel like only way SC can truly "fix" MM is to do something as you suggested. Either make certain defenses and/or levels of defenses mandatory before advancing townhalls or (and I personally like this idea) institute a minimum overall base weight for a base to be eligible for war.