War MM & Cannon Cart changes - the FEEDBACK thread!

[BZ1]

I would argue that we engineered out of necessity. As a clan founder and leader, i booted rushed bases because i believed in balance. I created the BALANCE DOCTRINE where everything had to be maxed before you made the jump.

This turned out to be a disaster. At a maxed th8 based clan, we were routinely getting matched against th9's. We had no answer for queen or xbows.

Then we eventually transitioned to th9.....again, we were out matched, but this time it was engineered clans. We were getting crushed.

It was clear what we had to do. And so we did it. Accumulating victory after victory.....20 to 30 win runs. Nothing to shatter any clash record, but winning over 95 percent of the time.

I guess we figured it out with the school of hard knocks. Match making is unforgiving, and for us to have any semblance of winning, we had to engineer.

Granted, i wont share our trade secrets, but our engineering was designed and well thought out and strictly enforced.

We are at another milestone with this new match making system.

Right now, i have a decent idea how its operating. I have have 2 wars since its update and i am currently in my 3rd.

All i can say is that if the game isnt fun anymore, just walk away. I have always held that belief.

[Slayer339]

Our 2nd war since the change, and in a 15v15, we just got an absolutely exact match of TH levels (1 TH11, 3 TH10, 4 TH9, 3 TH8, 3 TH7, 1 TH6 on each side) - haven't yet checked to see how close the troops/defences/heroes are.

I can't remember the last time we had a war where every rank in the list had the same TH on both sides.

This is the first person I have seen that has claimed a fair/even match that actually listed the composition of THs. I was beginning to think the problem may be a large range a THs. (Thank you!) We take to war TH10 down to TH6/TH5 depending on the war.

[Slayer339]

I'd be curious to know more about the algorithm.

Currently we have 4 th11, 7 th10, 4 th9, 2 th8 and 3 th7 against 5 th11, 6 th10, 8 th9, and 1 th8. Not a lot of obvious engineering although I haven't looked carefully under the hood of each participant. Match just seems lopsided.

Have you compared the defensive weights? The last war I started was extremely lopsided, but defensive weights were a near match lane x lane. Matched in 20 minutes.

[2222]

We might be talking the same thing. First stage I'd th match on top half of war map, and then use defence and offence to compare those th. If that's balance within a bit of wiggle room. Then you match up. The biggest problem I have with matches is when the other clan has more high level attacks than we do. As maxes we hardly ever had (if ever) had more top th attacks than the other clans. If I have 1 th 11 with good troops and we pull 1 th 11 max, I would not complain. But when we pull a max th 11 plus 3 or 4 more th 11 with max troops, it's ♥♥. We all know the more chances you get with higher troops you have a better chance to win. If this is how SC intends it then say so. Either we stop waring or engineer ourselves, but I personally think it's a chicken poo way to go, and from what SC had been saying they believe the same. Remember their core values post, or was that just lip service too? I personally don't believe that's how they intended we play this game, but they are endorsing it by allowing it to continue. Have to believe now they must be an alternative reason. .....

I had suggested previously a check that requires both clans to have the same number of "top" hall levels. Onyx correctly pointed out the flaw of that is a clan full of all max hall levels would have a huge advantage because other than the rare time they matched another clan with all max hall levels, they would instead match a clan with all the same hall levels, but not max. I think their search times would be so horrible that maybe that wouldn't be too much of a problem, but it is there. At minimum I think the match needs to require the same level of top hall. No more clans with a th11 matching a clan without. As for your experience with multiple th11 disadvantage, I think they are probably getting that by having low defensive weights below th10, maybe th9 or even lower. So, if a minimum defensive weight was used, all those th11s would at minimum weigh in as max th10s on defense and you never would've matched them. Anyway, I like the minimum hall weight more than straight hall matching although I do see in your explanation you are not saying just straight hall matching and then leave it at that. You are starting there and wanting more considerations after that. I think that would be awesome IF there are enough clans that matches could be found in a reasonable time, but I suspect that would be a big problem.

[STRIKER44]

We're a clan with around 25 to 30 active accounts. If heros upgrading out of war so we run a 10vs, 15 vs war a bunch. About 2/3 of our wars before the update were even matched with match time usually around 10 min. So in my experience there was not a problem matching comparable clans, just a problem when we got matched with engineered clans. Can't say at higher war levels. This may be a problem due to the so many clans using engineered accounts.

[Slayer339]

I had suggested previously a check that requires both clans to have the same number of "top" hall levels. Onyx correctly pointed out the flaw of that is a clan full of all max hall levels would have a huge advantage because other than the rare time they matched another clan with all max hall levels, they would instead match a clan with all the same hall levels, but not max. I think their search times would be so horrible that maybe that wouldn't be too much of a problem, but it is there. At minimum I think the match needs to require the same level of top hall. No more clans with a th11 matching a clan without. As for your experience with multiple th11 disadvantage, I think they are probably getting that by having low defensive weights below th10, maybe th9 or even lower. So, if a minimum defensive weight was used, all those th11s would at minimum weigh in as max th10s on defense and you never would've matched them. Anyway, I like the minimum hall weight more than straight hall matching although I do see in your explanation you are not saying just straight hall matching and then leave it at that. You are starting there and wanting more considerations after that. I think that would be awesome IF there are enough clans that matches could be found in a reasonable time, but I suspect that would be a big problem.

Any match making based on defensive units is fundamentally flawed. Wars are won by stars earned by offense. Everyone gets 2 attempts. 3 Stars are easily on a dip. 3 stars are not uncommon without dipping (with the possible exception of TH11, with a well designed layout).

It sounds like a fair percentage of the people on the forums either flat out engineer, .5 or prioritize offense in upgrades.

Several people have suggested setting weights based on the TH level. The common complaint is rushers and new THs are hurt in the balancing. Last weekend I gave this a long thought and suggested that the weights be for the most part strickly based on the offensive potential of the TH level based on it's upgraded offensive units (CC, Lab, camps, hero, spell factory) and that every TH offensive level (not TH level) be weighted 10X more than the prior level. This would allow rushers not to be unfairly weighted too high, but would also catch engineers and defenseless bases - while having little to no impact on the maxers.

Why is this not a viable option?

Wars are won on offensive, not defense – at least until the defenses are buffed so it is very hard to 2-star and rare to 3 star.
Not that a particular TH mas a minimum weight, but that certain key offensive structures have critical weight. The nominal weight each TH level (not the building) should be much more than the previous TH level. Say an order of magnitude:
TH 1: Min offensive weight =1 (max weight of 5?)
TH2: Min offensive weight =10 (max weight of 50?)
TH3: Min offensive weight =100 (max weight of 500?)
…
TH11: Min offensive weight =10,000,000,000 (max weight of 50,000,000,000?)
The “min” Offensive portion would be divided (for discussion purposes) evenly amongst: Lab, Clan Castle, Spell Factories, Camps, and Heroes. Say the “min” weight is 200M each at TH10. To earn the “min” weight the base would have to achieved the base level represented for that TH level.
Once the spell factory is upgraded to the level corresponding to that TH level, you get that portion. Such as 200M for spell factory level 5 at TH10.
Each time a camp is upgraded to level 8 your weight is 50M per camp. Ie 1 level 8 camp and 3 level 7 camps = 52million (2 million because each camp is already level 7, but 1 is now level 8) or 2 level 8 camps & 2 at level 7 is 102 million in weight.
The lab’s weight increases for the first 3 upgrades that require that level lab. Example a level 8 lab with no troops upgraded at level 8 lab is only 20million. A level 8 lab that upgrades 1 troop to level 8 lab levels is now 66.6 million in weight, 2 troops upgraded at level 8 lab levels is 133.3 million in weight, etc.
Hero’s, once you get the hero your “min” weight for heroes goes that level. Hero weight for a TH10 with only a king (no queen) is 100 million. Hero weight at TH11 with king and queen is 1.333B, hero weight with King Queen and GW is 2B. Etc.
This will also be OK (I think for people who rushed somewhat): A TH11 with TH9 troop level (20M), TH9 camps(20M), TH9 CC (20M), TH9 spell factory (20M) and has only the king (666.6M) weighs only 746.6 million (a strong TH9).
A TH 10 with lvl 5 dragons (66.6M), max lightning(66.6M), (no other upgraded troops) max camps(200M), max spell factory(200M) and lvl6 CC(200M) with no heroes (0) weights 733.2M . It’s strong enough to take out any TH9 (with a skilled attacker) and should weigh as much.
Defense can carry some weight, but should be atleast an order of magnitude lower than the offensive weight, as long as 2 & 3 stars are common.
I hope I got my math right, or I’m sure some of you will point it out. This is meant as an illustration, not hard numbers – so don’t get hung up on the numbers above.

[STRIKER44]

Any match making based on defensive units is fundamentally flawed. Wars are won by stars earned by offense. Everyone gets 2 attempts. 3 Stars are easily on a dip. 3 stars are not uncommon without dipping (with the possible exception of TH11, with a well designed layout).

It sounds like a fair percentage of the people on the forums either flat out engineer, .5 or prioritize offense in upgrades.

Several people have suggested setting weights based on the TH level. The common complaint is rushers and new THs are hurt in the balancing. Last weekend I gave this a long thought and suggested that the weights be for the most part strickly based on the offensive potential of the TH level based on it's upgraded offensive units (CC, Lab, camps, hero, spell factory) and that every TH offensive level (not TH level) be weighted 10X more than the prior level. This would allow rushers not to be unfairly weighted too high, but would also catch engineers and defenseless bases - while having little to no impact on the maxers.

Why is this not a viable option?

There needs to be a balance on both offense and defence once th has been compared or there will be exploits the opposite way there is now. That was there original problem and they fixed it, which allowed offence engineering to run ramped.

[JDwestover]

I think it is broken worse now. UGH, three clanmates ready to quit. and i do not have to time to become a potluck clan only. very very discouraging.

I am not sure the draw on Thursday evening was affected - we had a 7 war win streak and got matched against a clan that was a combination of rushed bases and clearly engineered 10s and 11s -- we are mostly non-engineered 9s. i have a couple 10s and 11s and was adding in non-engineered 8s and one 7 to help balance the 11s/10s in 20v20 wars.

anyhow - the Thursday night match ended being the end of the streak vs the engineered rushers both sides cleared all bases except the top 11 in clan and we lost the tie by .07% - i hate to match engineers who just brute force their way thru our 9s with their extra camp space spells and miners or bowlers, but it was a solid match.

then the Saturday night match was awful. truly horrid. took forever and turned out like this: 15 v15 vs a chinese engineered clan

our BD 2/2/11/(w/1 th7) vs their BD 4/4/6/ (w/ one th5) -- so that is 4 th11s and 4 th10s , a majority of their 15 bases were th10 or 11 vs our 2 11s and 2 10s. they wiped us clean with 3 th11 shots each at our 11s because they had 8 TH10 bully attacks on our th9s.

very worrisome and a step in the wrong direction.

Supercell, you are killing your own game.

[Slayer339]

Just matched our first post update war in my second clan, the one that contains engineered and defenseless bases.

Them:
TH11-1 (postion 18 of 25)
TH10-10
TH9 - 8
TH8 - 8
TH7 - 1
TH6 - 2

Us:
TH10 - 8
TH9 -14
TH8 - 3
TH7 - 5

Although their TH11 has the warden it looks like it may be a fairly close match.

(Over the weekend, my non engineered clan got hammered by a full on engineered clan - matched post update)

[2222]

Just matched our first post update war in my second clan, the one that contains engineered and defenseless bases.

Them:
TH11-1 (postion 18 of 25)
TH10-10
TH9 - 8
TH8 - 8
TH7 - 1
TH6 - 2

Us:
TH10 - 8
TH9 -14
TH8 - 3
TH7 - 5

Although their TH11 has the warden it looks like it may be a fairly close match.

(Over the weekend, my non engineered clan got hammered by a full on engineered clan - matched post update)

Strandwolf I hope you are seeing posts like this, engineers doing fine and a maxer clan getting a terrible match against an engineered clan. Remember for every engineer you see crying (the ones you say make you happy) there is a happy engineered clan on the other side of the uneven match. These maxer clans that are getting matched against engineers though.....