Engineering...after all my research... supercell is telling me ...

[DBlaze]

A valid point.

It seemed to me though that the discussion was on a single player engineering. Not on clan wide engineering. And, from a single player point of view, optimizing your "weigh in gear" knowing the weaknesses/limits of a system put in place to generate sensible matches would be called what then?

Maybe just simple oversight by the weigh in machine creators.

Everything you've stated so far makes total sense. I agree that some optimizing their bases with the info given, which in turn, gives them an advantage. But isn't it also safe to say that this info that you have regarding the issues with the mm shouldn't have been made available in the first place? Supercell implemented some changes to the mm that ALLOWS you to get these mismatches. It is, therefore, only right for Supercell to fix these issues and take away any advantages that engineered bases enjoy right now. Or simply tweak it so that engineers face other engineers, maxers vs maxers, and so on.

[Ripple1972]

A valid point.

It seemed to me though that the discussion was on a single player engineering. Not on clan wide engineering. And, from a single player point of view, optimizing your "weigh in gear" knowing the weaknesses/limits of a system put in place to generate sensible matches would be called what then?

Maybe just simple oversight by the weigh in machine creators.

You are correct in the single vs clan discussion. However, a single engineered base shouldn't cause that huge of a factor in overall war. It is the cumulative effect of multiple weighted bases that give too great an advantage.

I will agree that engineers have indeed positioned themselves very well with current mm. Fingers (and toes) crossed that changes soon or at least soonish.

Here is the thing that bothers me most. Maxers are perfectly fine with the idea of being seperated from engineers. They do not care if engineers fight each other. Maxers simply wish to fight similar bases. Engineers want to keep maxers in their war pool to maintain their advantage. An actual max base has a small advantage over other bases at it's level. Engineered bases enjoy a huge advantage over lower levels at the moment.

Thank you for recognizing the small advantage maxed bases could provide. I agree and have stated numerous times, the current advantage a properly engineered clan can have is too great and should be addressed. I still believe (maybe pointless) that mm should be able to accommodate both ways and match any type of clan with any other clan and still have a somewhat fair match. It will never be perfect, but a 55-45 split can be overcome, some of the 95-5 are silly. And these are the matches that I believe lead to less participation.

[DBlaze]

While i agree that most engineers do want to keep maxers in the mm pool i for one want to pool to be as large as possible. Then comes the where is the dividing line between maxer and engineer? Most of my accounts have all defenses at various levels to make a midlevel th. I look more rushed than anything else.
A final reason is more pleasure but with such negative comments made by maxers in the forums with reguards to who attacks better, why no engineered in cwl, the way the game was ment to be played it feels good to sometimes whip up on a maxer clan. Of course rather than owning up to the loss its becomes its the mm fault and the cycle repeats over again. Guess i should just stop.

Do you honestly feel the mm is working properly? That it's working as intended? If it is, then why is Supercell making more changes to it? If it isn't, then how can you tell someone to "own up to their loss" if it's not working as intended and forced 2 clans to face each other who had no business facing each other?

[Playforwar]

While i agree that most engineers do want to keep maxers in the mm pool i for one want to pool to be as large as possible. Then comes the where is the dividing line between maxer and engineer? Most of my accounts have all defenses at various levels to make a midlevel th. I look more rushed than anything else.
A final reason is more pleasure but with such negative comments made by maxers in the forums with reguards to who attacks better, why no engineered in cwl, the way the game was ment to be played it feels good to sometimes whip up on a maxer clan. Of course rather than owning up to the loss its becomes its the mm fault and the cycle repeats over again. Guess i should just stop.

I can only speak for myself and somewhat for my clan, but if maxers are kept in the same war pool with engineers, i will no longer be in such a pool. I'm sure some might try to take the engineered path, but I think many will disappear from the pool as well.

I've never claimed engineers were bad attackers. In fact, I would guess that many engineers would be excellent attackers and have great base designs as well. However, this just makes me wonder even more why they insist on being able to attack lower levels as well.

It's good to know that you so much enjoy beating up lower level opponents. You must be so proud. And yes, they had every right to complain if you beat them from a higher th.

Finally, I can't believe I'm gonna agree with you on something else, but yes, I agree that you should just stop.

[MrJackrabbit]

Do you honestly feel the mm is working properly? That it's working as intended? If it is, then why is Supercell making more changes to it? If it isn't, then how can you tell someone to "own up to their loss" if it's not working as intended and forced 2 clans to face each other who had no business facing each other?

I have repeatedly said that the mm isn't perfect and improvement need to be made, however I have also said the mm is not as far off as many claim. I have posted in my journal when we lose and what happened and what we could of done different. How many time do you see that on the forums? Or are the posts mostly we got a bad match because.. I can only go with what I see and being in 3 clans of various styles and levels I don't see all these massive mismatches. Do they exist? Sure they do we get them to. Maybe 1 in 10 either for or against. No where near the 8/10 many claim are mismatches. If a clan is getting that many they are either super unlucky which could be 1 or 2 clans, they are doing something to get mismatched, or they only think it's a mismatch because of th level, clan level, think a rushed base is really engineered, etc. Because it isn't an absolutely perfect match.

[DBlaze]

I have repeatedly said that the mm isn't perfect and improvement need to be made, however I have also said the mm is not as far off as many claim. I have posted in my journal when we lose and what happened and what we could of done different. How many time do you see that on the forums? Or are the posts mostly we got a bad match because.. I can only go with what I see and being in 3 clans of various styles and levels I don't see all these massive mismatches. Do they exist? Sure they do we get them to. Maybe 1 in 10 either for or against. No where near the 8/10 many claim are mismatches. If a clan is getting that many they are either super unlucky which could be 1 or 2 clans, they are doing something to get mismatched, or they only think it's a mismatch because of th level, clan level, think a rushed base is really engineered, etc. Because it isn't an absolutely perfect match.

I'll give credit where credit is due. I haven't read your journal in its entirety but you absolutely do that. Whether the mismatches happen as often as some say or not I have no idea. I can only speak from clans experience and from what the posts simply say here in the forums. And I do agree that the mm will never be perfect. Nor do I expect it to give exact or perfect matches. All I want to see is a mm that more adequately accounts every base that's tossed in the random spin. At the end of the day, most, if not everyone, wants to play how they want. It's just the rest of us who choose not to engineer don't want to be put at a disadvantage simply because of not choosing to engineer.

[Playforwar]

Thank you for recognizing the small advantage maxed bases could provide. I agree and have stated numerous times, the current advantage a properly engineered clan can have is too great and should be addressed. I still believe (maybe pointless) that mm should be able to accommodate both ways and match any type of clan with any other clan and still have a somewhat fair match. It will never be perfect, but a 55-45 split can be overcome, some of the 95-5 are silly. And these are the matches that I believe lead to less participation.[/QUOTE]

Thanks. Max bases definitely have a small advantage over lower bases at their level. That small advantage worked against me as as I've worked to max at each th to this point. I had no issues with this and actually expected that disadvantage each time I upgraded ths. Now that I have reached max 9, the game has changed. I have become a liability for my clan with current mm. I now pull 10s into our wars. All I wanted to do was be able to fight at 9 for a bit without worrying about heroes being down before moving to 10. Once I upgrade to10, I will once again expect that small disadvantage.

I do also wish the mm could accommodate everyone as well, it just seems like a tall task. For our clan, mm has never been worse. We can't see them changing mm for the worse for sure, but we're also not confident that any upcoming changes would be enough to make the game playable for us. When/if changes are announced, we will definitely give war another shot, but we are not overly optomistic.

[WookieFloyd]

I can only speak for myself and somewhat for my clan, but if maxers are kept in the same war pool with engineers, i will no longer be in such a pool. I'm sure some might try to take the engineered path, but I think many will disappear from the pool as well.

I've never claimed engineers were bad attackers. In fact, I would guess that many engineers would be excellent attackers and have great base designs as well. However, this just makes me wonder even more why they insist on being able to attack lower levels as well.

It's good to know that you so much enjoy beating up lower level opponents. You must be so proud. And yes, they had every right to complain if you beat them from a higher th.

Finally, I can't believe I'm gonna agree with you on something else, but yes, I agree that you should just stop.

Why do most anti-engineers come to this? Why is it a universal assumption that all engineers are dipping 2+ th levels for all their attacks? I mean don't get me wrong I am sure there are defenseless/low level th11 clans spamming their mass drag or whatever, but in my experience both in engineered and non-engineered wars this is rare. Every war I have ever participated in has taken dip attacks to secure the victory. Do you participate in the NDL (No Dip League)? Where do these wars exist that require no dip attacks at all? I guess if your clan wars at a th8 and 9 level only then this could be more plausible. Just seems to me that every clan that wins frequently utilizes dip attacks. Bottom th9s cleaning max 8s, bottom th10s cleaning max 9s, bottom th11 cleaning max 10s. It just seems like a very common practice in war. I mean the CWL seems to utilize a dip strategy to a huge extent.

Seems like to me you just lump all forms of engineering into that defenseless th11 dragon spam version of engineering that typically results in bad mismatches due to a faulty MM, but I just refuse to believe that this is all that common. If this was such a common occurrence then SC would have likely done something about it awhile ago. I have seen this once in hundreds of wars.

Also whether maxers and engineers get separated in the MM or all the maxers decide to quit because SC does nothing it effectively results in the same ending. A smaller MM pool that will have less available clans to match against each other which will likely result in just as many mismatches as there are now. Just because maxers match maxers (if SC goes that route) doesn't mean that there wont still be mismatches. Maybe the mismatches wont be as severe as they are now, but there will still be mismatches.

[WookieFloyd]

Thank you for recognizing the small advantage maxed bases could provide. I agree and have stated numerous times, the current advantage a properly engineered clan can have is too great and should be addressed. I still believe (maybe pointless) that mm should be able to accommodate both ways and match any type of clan with any other clan and still have a somewhat fair match. It will never be perfect, but a 55-45 split can be overcome, some of the 95-5 are silly. And these are the matches that I believe lead to less participation.

Thanks. Max bases definitely have a small advantage over lower bases at their level. That small advantage worked against me as as I've worked to max at each th to this point. I had no issues with this and actually expected that disadvantage each time I upgraded ths. Now that I have reached max 9, the game has changed. I have become a liability for my clan with current mm. I now pull 10s into our wars. All I wanted to do was be able to fight at 9 for a bit without worrying about heroes being down before moving to 10. Once I upgrade to10, I will once again expect that small disadvantage.

I do also wish the mm could accommodate everyone as well, it just seems like a tall task. For our clan, mm has never been worse. We can't see them changing mm for the worse for sure, but we're also not confident that any upcoming changes would be enough to make the game playable for us. When/if changes are announced, we will definitely give war another shot, but we are not overly optomistic.

You do realize that the difference in power (offensively and defensively) between a new th9 and a max th9 is a pretty sizable difference, same goes for a th10 and th11. It is not necessarily just a small advantage if a true max th9 is matching with a lower th9 on regular basis, and if you have a bunch of true max bases in your lineup then that advantage becomes cumulative. I would also argue the gap widens even more a th10 and th11 between new and maxed. As a max th9 you shouldn't just pull other th9s because then likely you will always have the advantage.

edit: not sure what happened to quotes on this one or how to fix it really

[Playforwar]

Why do most anti-engineers come to this? Why is it a universal assumption that all engineers are dipping 2+ th levels for all their attacks? I mean don't get me wrong I am sure there are defenseless/low level th11 clans spamming their mass drag or whatever, but in my experience both in engineered and non-engineered wars this is rare. Every war I have ever participated in has taken dip attacks to secure the victory. Do you participate in the NDL (No Dip League)? Where do these wars exist that require no dip attacks at all? I guess if your clan wars at a th8 and 9 level only then this could be more plausible. Just seems to me that every clan that wins frequently utilizes dip attacks. Bottom th9s cleaning max 8s, bottom th10s cleaning max 9s, bottom th11 cleaning max 10s. It just seems like a very common practice in war. I mean the CWL seems to utilize a dip strategy to a huge extent.

Seems like to me you just lump all forms of engineering into that defenseless th11 dragon spam version of engineering that typically results in bad mismatches due to a faulty MM, but I just refuse to believe that this is all that common. If this was such a common occurrence then SC would have likely done something about it awhile ago. I have seen this once in hundreds of wars.

Also whether maxers and engineers get separated in the MM or all the maxers decide to quit because SC does nothing it effectively results in the same ending. A smaller MM pool that will have less available clans to match against each other which will likely result in just as many mismatches as there are now. Just because maxers match maxers (if SC goes that route) doesn't mean that there wont still be mismatches. Maybe the mismatches wont be as severe as they are now, but there will still be mismatches.

Actually, I'm more concerned when one clan dips at top and the other clan is unable as they do not have higher ths. If we have 10s in our lineup, it doesn't bother me if opposing clan dips on me. Our 10s can do the same.