The true debate.. Is it fair to Engineers to change the MM?

[TankSinatra]

Well said Chris! No first account casual pick up and player is NOT going to build that Mortar (or Wiz Tower) early on in the game, because they are so powerful against those early troops (Barbs,Archers,Giants etc)

By weighting these splash defences heavily, SC are penalising the volume player from the get go.
Not good!

Always seemed to me that the tutorial specifically teaches you to go preemie. Drop everything you can, and gem gem gem. If there's a warning about TH loot penalty, everyone seems to miss it. Definitely no warning against letting defense get ahead of offense.

I always think about that when people bring up THE WAY THE GAME IS MEANT TO BE PLAYED. You're meant to back yourself into a corner and feel pressure to gem to fix it.

[Chang405]

I think its fair to say you never will see such a statment from SC. I do believe a mod or perhaps darien did say SC is aware of the problem engineering causes and they dont like it. Its not a direct scolding by SC but I believe its about as close as you will get. I think the diversty comment is them thinking of rushers, they dont want to hurt them but seem on a path to try and hurt the engineered bases. I for one have doubts they will successfully but seems clear its a goal.

I agree. My response was directly specifically at the sentence "the way the game is supposed to be played". People are just making up some extra rules and expecting other players to go along using "the way the game is supposed to be played" as the default excuse.

[strandwolfza]

Everyone can choose to build their base as they want, and work for diversity if they want, but not building defense should put you at a disadvantage, not advantage.

It's that simple. Your sentence should be enough to close the debate.

although this can make a lot of sense to you guys, and it does to me too, chang is asking for an official stance from supercell about this and if you can't provide it, then he's right in saying that supercell is NOT against engineering

[NightFury100]

It's hard not buying the shiny new defenses even if you know what the war weight will do to your village. The temptation is always there and I find it difficult to resist buying the new inferno towers for my village.

[Chang405]

That's exactly what I'm getting at. You get mortars at th5-6? Let's just say th5. People are already ruining their accounts at th5. How many new players at th5 are war weight savvy? These same th5 players place their mortars, spend a year or more building their bases only to find out they've chosen the wrong path and there isn't an re-do button. They're stuck eating the years they've invested.

Now, here's the serious question. How many of those type of players are you will to wager would start completely over? All the way back to th5, only to not build any heavy defense. Remember, this process will take years once again. How many of them do you think is sticking around?

Yes, there is no way to start over and most people wouldn't want to start over. Most casuals are only interested in playing one account. However I do think the reason most quit by Th8/9 isn't because they realized that they have tacked on extra, useless defensive weight. Rather, its because the game has become too complex (time spent learning and planning war attacks or time spent grind farming).

[Funktastic]

-SC doesn't organize competitions.
-Match making was never correct. In the good old days, MM would randomly give one clan a huge advantage 8 Th10s vs 2 Th10s. Engineering wasn't even a thing back then.
-I didn't decide to exploit anything, you have no idea why I decided to engineer.
-SC said they are working to create a more balanced MM. They didn't even use the word "engineering".....lopsided bases is the key word here.
-Troops are balanced to attack the same TH level???? That tells me you have not reached TH10 yet.......
-Yes you should build your defenses, but where does it say WHEN you should build them?
-Here you are right, SC is not happy with the MM.
-According to Sinofdusk, maxing has never giving you an advantage. I'm not sure if its true or not.

- CWL, Clash Cup, forum wars etc etc
- MM was never correct, maybe it will be in the next few days...
- Yes I have an idea...
- SC said that they are working on the MM because it's not correct.
- I'm TH11, I know that I always 3 star TH10 and 9, and I always 3 starred TH9 when I was TH10. I know that this is what you search to do, and maybe you are happy doing it. For skilled player, the goal is to 3 star equivalent TH, maybe we like the challenge too much...
- That's the problem, if MM wasn't faulty, you also would drop your defense, let's see in few days. And it's nowhere written the real weight of each building, so you shouldn't have known this information if nobody have exploited it before.
- SC and all non-engineers.
- I don't know

[2222]

Yes, it's true, I think engineering is a very unsportsmanlike way to play the game. But I get it, this is a game open to hundreds of millions of people all over the world, of course some will exploit loopholes.

I think what bugs me more is people that try to justify it. The excuses and reasons they come up with are total nonsense. It's like watching one of those contortionists squeeze themselves into a tiny box, you know how it will end and the whole thing just looks painful and awkward.

I believe that is why these threads almost always degrade down into personal mudslinging and have to be closed. There just isn't enough actual substance here to be debated. The people trying to justify the use of engineering or supporting it have such a tiny space to operate in, the conversation has no choice but to turn ugly quickly.

I find the toxicity comes from both sides. It usually starts with an engineer insulting the intelligence or will to win of a nonengineer or it starts with a nonengineer calling engineers cheaters, assuming they have no playing skills, etc. When the emotion and negative (often incorrect) assumptions are taken out and the focus is on what makes for good wars, what type of matchmaker makes "even" wars (not "fair" wars), what is good for the game long term, etc. there can be and have been good conversations without much toxicity. This thread has been pretty good overall I think.

[Skinnyfat]

You're asking is it unfair on engineers if the MM flaws are fixed so that they have wars where both clans always have a chance of winning?
You're suggesting it might be unfair on them if they no longer have an advantage over other players in a PvP game?

Is this a serious question, or a troll?

.

It isn't a troll it's a perfectly legitimate question to answer.

You ask if it's fair that one side should have an advantage but you need to understand why engineering has taken off so much. It's because players felt that one side had an advantage (the better players) and they couldn't compete.

A clan full of good players always beats a clan full of average players so who has the advantage there?


OP: I think it isn't fair to engineers to change the MM system to negate their tactics but that doesn't matter. Life isn't fair so just anti up and get on with it.

I hope they do squeeze engineers out because it's ruining the spirit of the game and the way wars 'should' be played.

[littledoctor]

... did say SC is aware of the problem engineering causes ...

This is a mindset issue that I and others have pointed out from time to time. It is not engineering causing the problem of mismatches, it is engineering *revealing* the problems of the matchmaker.

Engineering will always exist. SC should fix problems in the matchmaker so that engineering does not lead to unwinnable wars, or at least, leads to fewer unwinnable wars.

[strandwolfza]

.

It isn't a troll it's a perfectly legitimate question to answer.

You ask if it's fair that one side should have an advantage but you need to understand why engineering has taken off so much. It's because players felt that one side had an advantage (the better players) and they couldn't compete.

A clan full of good players always beats a clan full of average players so who has the advantage there?

look even if I try to be 'fair' in this debate and listen to the engineers POV, this thing that you just wrote is the kind of thing that makes think, "are you kidding me?!"