The true debate.. Is it fair to Engineers to change the MM?

[MrJackrabbit]

yep, pretty much


such as?
but I doubt it, everything that isn't fair (in the sense that it gives someone an unfair advantage over someone else) can also be called cheating


there'll always be complaining, yes. but, at least this time, it is justified. and it isn't like you're saying. this situation is supercell's fault, because they created a flawed MM, but users who choose to exploit this flaw are also to blame. and the way you're saying it's as if there is no problem, but there is, engineering is the problem, it's ruining wars for a lot of people

1. Attractive people are considered smarter, nicer, and more moral than unattractive people.
2. People prefer to do business with people they have relationships with, rather than the ones offering the best deal.
3. Many jobs are never advertised. News travels through social networks instead.
Are 3 easy examoles that peiple on the opposite end of say its not fair all the time. Cheating? Nope.

[strandwolfza]

Opinions:
Engineering is strategy

engineering is a strategy, an unfair one, but still a strategy. this is a fact, no? why not?

SC would eliminate engineering if they could

this is also a fact, although supercell values the freedom we have in this game, they showed a lot of times that they think that engineering is a problem. the challenge is to remove engineering without also removing our freedom in the process. but if they knew a way to remove engineering without any colateral damage, I'm certain they would do it

Can't argue facts
It's difficult to discuss opinions as yours is just as valid as mine

while I think you're right, if people was less attached to what they already believe, then it'd be a lot easier to discuss our opinions and ideas. but what we often see is, when challenged, people tend to entrench themselves even further in their beliefs. such behaviour is certainly not desired if we want to get to the truth of the issue

[ryryshouse]

CWL has multiple occurrences of clans modding, and hedging on the tier structure.

not a fact.

multiple occurrences of players being caught modding, yes. only aware of 1 clan with a clan effort in this regard.

[strandwolfza]

1. Attractive people are considered smarter, nicer, and more moral than unattractive people.
2. People prefer to do business with people they have relationships with, rather than the ones offering the best deal.
3. Many jobs are never advertised. News travels through social networks instead.
Are 3 easy examoles that peiple on the opposite end of say its not fair all the time. Cheating? Nope.

I call all of that cheating!!1!

seriously, I kinda do

[ClasherClash443]

I will try this one more time. Trying to stick to facts, or at least generally accepted opinions with a majority. You seem to state an opinion. Then claim it's a fact.

Facts:
Engineers build bases to optimize for random war spins.
Currently, the mm provides an advantage to clans that do this well.
This advantage has been in place for over a year.
Modding is against the terms of service
CWL does not allow for modding or for engineered bases, but has tiers for th's to better match.
CWL has multiple occurrences of clans modding, and hedging on the tier structure.
Some very prominent clans in CWL advocated for x.5 for a long time.
The mm is the same for everyone.

Opinions:
Engineering is strategy
CWL is the highest form of war
maxing or non engineering is the right way to play
SC would eliminate engineering if they could.

statements from a biased participant
engineering is garbage
engineering is flat out bad for the game
engineering is analogous to steroid use.

Can't argue facts
It's difficult to discuss opinions as yours is just as valid as mine.
making ridiculous statements leads to discussions being closed by the mods.

I'm not sure what counterpoint we should be making. CWL doesn't allow engineering. The NDL doesn't allow dips. Both facts. We did an friendly war. Made every ground attacker use air, and every air attacker use ground. In a controlled environment you can make up whatever rules you want.

Maybe try and discuss or make arguments to defend your opinions.

Lol I am not sure what you want from me... to be unbiased? Sorry not going to happen. You are biased, I am biased. Anyone who engages in this conversation is biased.

Also not sure what facts I am making up... but honestly dude I am done with this. I am not even sure what you guys are arguing anymore. You want me to say you are super genius awesome strategy player for your leet engineering skills? Done. You're the greatest. You win.

After this next major change Darian has speculated about and the dusts settles from that we will see what's what.

Until then clash on homie.

[URaTOWELL]

yes, that's right, I won't. engineers don't respect all the time and effort me and my clan dedicated to practice and to improve our skills (the way the game was intended to be played) just to see that we lost the war before it even started because the opponent decided to exploit a flaw in the MM


https://forum.supercell.com/showthread.php/1566216-Don-t-Hate-on-Engineers


I understand why you feel like this, but are able to understand why I feel like I do? my clan decided to quit wars because of engineering, some members left because of this, the game is almost dead to us. and all of this because we chose to play the game the way it was intended, unlike engineers. have some simpathy


I was referring about what a lot of us really think about engineers, things that we can't say here because we would definetly be banned. yes it's ugly, but it's real. it's what we say about them in the clan chat after losing an un-winnable war for them


I don't even know what ripple said, but something like this sounds a lot like, "hey what you said here aligns with what I think so you're the only smart person here and anyone else is dumb"


and please, as holps said, let's not make him close this thread

that last line is classic coming from the most insulting person on this thread

[MrJackrabbit]

The problem with perma max bases is in the matching, when there are several. 1 or 2 is fine, but what if a clan spins war with a dozen fully maxed th9s. What are they hoping to match to? Its very unlikely another clan with so many perma max th9s will be searching at the same time. So the suspicion is they wanted to match lower th9s and beat them up. But SC fixed that. What they will match is a mix of th9s and th10s - probably 9.5s. And then they complain about matching and engineering

If you like 9v9 war then you war with 20/20 heroes. Anyone going to 30/30 heroes and camping there will not get sensible random wars

That is why my permamax is more mid level. Take th9. I have all the new defenses but are maxed at the th8 level and new defenses are level 1. This is for my maxed clan.
Oh wait. On the other side... Some might claim that is manipulating the mm to get easier matches like a th9 rather than a th10. It must be illegal then.

[DBlaze]

Here's more of what I think. Everyone will agree that we all want the freedom to build our bases the way we want. But for sake of argument, if I build my base to give myself an advantage as non engineered, and you do the same as engineered, why is your base given the advantage? Engineers obviously do it to get this advantage. But in order to get this advantage, they have take advantage of this flaw. Because there is a flaw in the mm, it needs to be fixed. And If you fix the flaw, no advantages will be given. We're both still given the freedom to build how we want but it evens the playing field. The mm obviously doesn't weigh everything properly as it should. That's the issue to me.

[Ripple1972]

engineering is a strategy, an unfair one, but still a strategy. this is a fact, no? why not?



this is also a fact, although supercell values the freedom we have in this game, they showed a lot of times that they think that engineering is a problem. the challenge is to remove engineering without also removing our freedom in the process. but if they knew a way to remove engineering without any colateral damage, I'm certain they would do it



while I think you're right, if people was less attached to what they already believe, then it'd be a lot easier to discuss our opinions and ideas. but what we often see is, when challenged, people tend to entrench themselves even further in their beliefs. such behaviour is certainly not desired if we want to get to the truth of the issue

i believe engineering is a strategy. Others disagreed, I would put it as a fact, but not sure the anti's would agree
i don't believe (happy to change) SC ever used or hinted at removal. They have said it is a concern, but there was previously no consensus. I would agree and support reducing the advantage, but not sure I'd say remove or eliminate.
100% agree on 3.

not a fact.

multiple occurrences of players being caught modding, yes. only aware of 1 clan with a clan effort in this regard.

You are correct, I should and will edit.

[Lunaticfringe]

was it fair to maxers to change the mm in march of 2016? Clans running tons of max or close to max th9s were getting favorable matchups. Sc realized they needed to do something to push players to progress beyond perma-maxing th9.

Engineers are fond of the phrase, "a real chief would adapt." blind lopsiding was an evolutionary dead end. Sc does what they think is best for the long term success of the game, not what is "fair."

perfectly said!

Aren't you the same guy who admitted putting th3s in war as "fillers" some might call that roster engineering but who am I to judge.

Maybe I'm missing something, but including a TH3 at the bottom of a war roster still seems much more like a reasonable gambit than engineering a TH, to say nothing about an entire clan

The analogy is completely false because taking steroids is against the rules of almost every sport, and is considered outright cheating, with a 2 year ban for a first offence in all sports signed up to the international agreements.

To say nothing about the fact that steroids actually help you train harder, not easier. Many have the misconception that steroids are an, "easy" way, which, in reality, it's the opposite. It helps you, if you have the desire, to train much, much harder. The idea that you just take it and, "BAM!" is totally false, but that is another story...