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Thread: Fight Fire with FIre

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by MossackFonseca View Post
    Before you cave in and start engineering, shouldn't you bother trying to figure out why you're matching engineered clans constantly? To be honest, it's probably easier for most clans to completely balance out than it is to engineer so well that you're more successful than you would have been as a balanced clan.

    Check out this thread:

    https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...gineered-Clans
    Totally agree, because engineering route take a lot of discipline to be succesfull and u may lose a lot of members that is not aligned to your objective.

    a Half hearted engineered clan may perform worst then a balance clan with good skill

  2. #12
    Millennial Club wysiwyg's Avatar
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    Given that sc has been making changing to prevent people from sandbagging the mm system, and their promise that they're working on it,

    maybe claim the moral victory (cuppa tea anyone?) and stick to the fair play road.

    As tempting as it is to join in all the sandbagging merry making, I've got to assume (this year I hope) that sc will get it sorted out.

  3. #13
    Millennial Club CasimirEffect's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MossackFonseca View Post
    Before you cave in and start engineering, shouldn't you bother trying to figure out why you're matching engineered clans constantly? To be honest, it's probably easier for most clans to completely balance out than it is to engineer so well that you're more successful than you would have been as a balanced clan.

    Check out this thread:

    https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...gineered-Clans
    As we discussed yesterday in clan, this bit is only true for the most common lineups in the game (whatever those are). A great addition to the OP provided in link above would be 3-10 different roster compositions that result in consistently fair match-ups based on empirical data.

    We run into all types of clans: engineers, rushers, elite league clans. Name the clan type and we have seen it semi-frequently since October and I have even identified patterns in these matchups which we have scewed our lineup slightly to combat. Less and 1/3 of our matchups are close but we have seen a slight improvement for all of our efforts since we began scrambling in October when our matchups were consistently putting us in handicap matches weighted in our opponents favor (with a fair lineup of heavy 9s matching engineered 10s and 11s, then we went 9.5s and paired with full 10s, etc, etc - its all in that thread).

    Could we consolidate the lineups that certain groups feel are pulling in reasonable matchups from a large enough pool of available clans and provide a template for people to work from? Or is this state secret?

    I've been saying that if you run a light and common TH7-TH9 lineup at 20v you will get more or less fair matchups consistently. You can even add 1-2 TH10/11s at the top and pull in decent matchups. The issue is that these wars aren't competitive (to competitive clans), so what is the heaviest common matchups that works? Our lineup of 5/5/15 is not the one unless we are on clan league cycle and the stars align.

    We simply shifted our focus: put less emphasis on winning, more on having fun and improving with every war. Networking has also become a primary focus since we need to maintain 25v with all heavy high hero accounts to make it worth spinning a random war, plus Pot Luck is the best opportunity as a fair test of skill available in game currently without jumping through hoops and clan size restrictions make it nearly impossible to run these events solo.
    Last edited by CasimirEffect; April 22nd, 2017 at 02:55 AM.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by wysiwyg View Post
    Given that sc has been making changing to prevent people from sandbagging the mm system, and their promise that they're working on it,

    maybe claim the moral victory (cuppa tea anyone?) and stick to the fair play road.

    As tempting as it is to join in all the sandbagging merry making, I've got to assume (this year I hope) that sc will get it sorted out.
    Last i checked having a team of people that master different skills aka specializing wasnt sandbagging. And yes a group of masters should beat a group of jack of all trades.
    Do you claim sandbagging in football? American football teams specialize each player mastering a specific skill. Who do you think should win in a football game a team where everyone is exactly the same or a team that has specialized players? Whould you call the nfl team sandbaggers or specializing? If you call them specialized is it fair play or should teams take the "moral high ground" by consistantly losing?
    Intentially setting the bar low is sandbagging by defination. So is playing at a level lower than one can play. Why should engineers purposely play at a lower level so they game can be more competitive? Why not have others play at a higher level. Written like that is sounds like those with a maxers mentality seem to be the sandbaggers and not playing to the best of their ability.
    Better off just drop the term sandbagging that you use in every post and stop blaming others for your losses.
    Last edited by MrJackrabbit; April 22nd, 2017 at 06:29 AM.
    If you're not smarter than the guy you're dealing with you lose.
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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrJackrabbit View Post
    Last i checked having a team of people that master different skills aka specializing wasnt sandbagging. And yes a group of masters should beat a group of jack of all trades.
    Do you claim sandbagging in football? American football teams specialize each player mastering a specific skill. Who do you think should win in a football game a team where everyone is exactly the same or a team that has specialized players? Whould you call the nfl team sandbaggers or specializing? If you call them specialized is it fair play or should teams take the "moral high ground" by consistantly losing?
    Intentially setting the bar low is sandbagging by defination. So is playing at a level lower than one can play. Why should engineers purposely play at a lower level so they game can be more competitive? Why not have others play at a higher level. Written like that is sounds like those with a maxers mentality seem to be the sandbaggers and not playing to the best of their ability.
    Better off just drop the term sandbagging that you use in every post and stop blaming others for your losses.
    l

    Uhhhh, the direction you are going to go with is that engineers play at an elite level? That's why they build their TH10 with defenses low with max TH10 offense and camps so that they can take their mass lvl 2 bowlers with healers and beat up TH9's? That is special and is only one example of many. But it is unfortunate the system rewards this style of play. Engineers can pat themselves on the back and make all the rationalizations but at the end of the day all they are really doing is manipulating a flawed system. Btw, the term sandbagging, which for engineers is hiding offensive strength by having weak defenses in order to match up against lesser opponents. Do engineers do that or don't they: if they don't engineer to get easier opponents what then is the point of engineering?

  6. #16
    Senior Member HumptyGoblin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrJackrabbit View Post
    ?..
    Intentially setting the bar low is sandbagging by defination. So is playing at a level lower than one can play. Why should engineers purposely play at a lower level so they game can be more competitive?
    ...
    That is a very odd question considering that it is the exact intent of engineering in COC.

    And I don't know why you feel clashers are only able to master one attack style. Good lord I'd have put the game down years ago if I couldn't be successful with multiple attack techniques, how boring. Aren't you the puppet master of a 1-man clan? You're telling me that all of your villages only utilize a single attack technique because that's all you feel you can master?
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  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by bouges View Post
    l

    Uhhhh, the direction you are going to go with is that engineers play at an elite level? That's why they build their TH10 with defenses low with max TH10 offense and camps so that they can take their mass lvl 2 bowlers with healers and beat up TH9's? That is special and is only one example of many. But it is unfortunate the system rewards this style of play. Engineers can pat themselves on the back and make all the rationalizations but at the end of the day all they are really doing is manipulating a flawed system. Btw, the term sandbagging, which for engineers is hiding offensive strength by having weak defenses in order to match up against lesser opponents. Do engineers do that or don't they: if they don't engineer to get easier opponents what then is the point of engineering?
    the idea is this in clan war the elite level would be what? The style that wins? I believe there is a better style than engineers however engineers appear to have a better understanding than other style of play. That is part of the reason many complain about engineers on the forums. They dont want to accept their style is inferior in clan war and claim its unfair and want SC to change it. Remember i believe clan war is a chalange of styles and may the best style win. If SC changes the MM engineers will simply adapt to that while other styles will simply want SC to change for them.
    BTW Cwl is an elite style of war for frendly wars. The 2 shile similar are different.

    Quote Originally Posted by HumptyGoblin View Post
    That is a very odd question considering that it is the exact intent of engineering in COC.

    And I don't know why you feel clashers are only able to master one attack style. Good lord I'd have put the game down years ago if I couldn't be successful with multiple attack techniques, how boring. Aren't you the puppet master of a 1-man clan? You're telling me that all of your villages only utilize a single attack technique because that's all you feel you can master?
    Yes i do have a one man clan and no they dont have just one attack. However at the each account has one attack they use. Each on has the troops for one attack. A th11 with babylaloon, th11 lavaloon, th10 with dragons, th9 with gowiva. The other troops are not unlocked or leveled up. It allows each account to be a master of one attack style and keep the offense weight down. They work with a team having the best style attack the best base for it.
    This is what i mean about specialize vs jack of all trades or generalist. The specialist use team work vs the generalist being only good at everything. You dont have lineman precticing runningback drills in football. Or in war did infentry practice archery? Each one had a specific task and part.
    Its strategy in a strategy game. Is it superior? Under the current mm it is. If SC i will simply adapt and change. For the record i have both a one man clan and a clan with teammates.
    If you're not smarter than the guy you're dealing with you lose.
    You failed to utilize the most effective strategy by not using the most available resources to affect your outcome.
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    Defeat the enemy anyway you can.

  8. #18
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    The main caution I would have to deciding to change to an engineered clan is you will face even more of the clans that you don't like to face and with their engineering experience, they might be doing it better than you anyway, leaving you with the same winning percentage as you have now. Personally, I have a few war filler accounts that I engineered and I throw them in the war when we need the numbers (like if we have 14 in war I put one in to make it 15). When I do so, we see more engineered clans than when I don't.

  9. #19
    Forum Veteran Dausano's Avatar
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    There isn't really an argument as to engineering being cheating or not. It isn't. The real problem is that the majority of players in the game just aren't THAT into the game to put in that kind of effort to work the system in their favor. These casual players are being turned off/scared off by this culture. Engineered clans are preying on the non. Some have even said that they have to find other ways to entertain themselves when they are paired with a similar engineered clan in war. So this choice of playstyle isn't really all that interesting in every situation? I'm in a fairly balanced clan and we've managed to use the various techniques to get mostly balanced matchups. We're hopeful that SC will continue tweaking to make it less difficult to do so.

    Stay strong, OP. Don't give up yet. You'll probably only manage to be kinda-engineered which will make the draws even harder on you.
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  10. #20
    Senior Member HumptyGoblin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrJackrabbit View Post
    ...

    Yes i do have a one man clan and no they dont have just one attack. However at the each account has one attack they use. Each on has the troops for one attack. A th11 with babylaloon, th11 lavaloon, th10 with dragons, th9 with gowiva. The other troops are not unlocked or leveled up. It allows each account to be a master of one attack style and keep the offense weight down. They work with a team having the best style attack the best base for it.

    Sounds pretty limiting to me, as opposed to having the best attack available for any given base. Maybe you can match the best attack style available for your arsenal but their are many more combinations available than what you have useable. The fact is, as an engineered clan you match much weaker opponents to where you just don't need an optimal army to beat them.

    This is what i mean about specialize vs jack of all trades or generalist. The specialist use team work vs the generalist being only good at everything.

    Lol

    You dont have lineman precticing runningback drills in football.

    I beg to differ, linemen run quite a bit in football. Very poor analogy.

    Or in war did infentry practice archery?

    I hope under no circumstances infantry practice archery in war or in peace, archery is a tad bit outdated considering today's firepower. Very poor analogy.

    Each one had a specific task and part. Its strategy in a strategy game. Is it superior? Under the current mm it is.

    It is superior when seeking as large of an advantage as possible on offense and defense to secure a matchup with an easy opponent, I agree. Some of us aren't into that.

    If SC i will simply adapt and change.

    ?

    For the record i have both a one man clan and a clan with teammates.

    ................
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    Release The Beasts: The Beast has been released! Dragon unlocked!
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