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Thread: My pro-engineering opinions

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bandorf View Post
    I would counter by arguing that engineering is the intentional avoidance of overvalued strength.
    I learned recently that in weight-based sports, competitors often engage in a variety of strategies to decrease the weight they think they won't need. For example, dehydration before a meet (which has performance tradeoffs), or purposely focusing on upper body strength instead of lower body strength to avoid heavier than needed leg muscles.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by TankSinatra View Post
    Thanks for the correction, I shouldn't have brought golf in since all I really know about it is that its a good thing to put on TV when I want to take a nap. But my point still stands, sandbagging is intentional underperformance. So intentionally losing to reset the win streak would be sandbagging, but I doubt many do that. Dropping trophies in multiplayer is sandbagging, but not many people get upset about it. Engineering is like a fighter choosing where to put on muscle, and how to cut in order to make weight. It's strategy.

    There's a valid discussion as to whether its good for the game, if engineers can coexist in the same pool as people that upgrade without regard to weights, what should SC do to the MM, etc. But the word "sandbagging" doesn't have any place in that discussion. I suspect people are using it not because its accurate, but because using the word "cheating" might get you moderated.
    Yes, its a way to say cheating without getting in trouble, a lyrical dance to find an insult thats not really a clear insult. You can see the motivation by the fact that the definition of sandbagging doesnt fit that engineers do. If sandbagging could apply to boxers or wrestlers cutting fat over muscle, to optimise for each weight class, then it would fit well, but no one used this term to describe cutting bodyfat.

    Sandbagging a neutral term? Laughable.

    like you say this is irrelevant to the long term damage done by a matchmaker that gives too much advantage to the wrong things, but thats a perpendiclar issue as you put it.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vikingchief View Post
    Yes, its a way to say cheating without getting in trouble, a lyrical dance to find an insult thats not really a clear insult. You can see the motivation by the fact that the definition of sandbagging doesnt fit that engineers do. If sandbagging could apply to boxers or wrestlers cutting fat over muscle, to optimise for each weight class, then it would fit well, but no one used this term to describe cutting bodyfat.

    Sandbagging a neutral term? Laughable.

    like you say this is irrelevant to the long term damage done by a matchmaker that gives too much advantage to the wrong things, but thats a perpendiclar issue as you put it.
    Sandbagging is not an insult. It is what engineers do.

    EDIT: look it up: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandbagging
    Last edited by Prutser; 6 Days Ago at 09:26 PM.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prutser View Post
    Sandbagging is not an insult. It is what engineers do.

    EDIT: look it up: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandbagging
    You can describe what people do, using a negative term or a neutral term. Optimisation is a neutral term. Sandbagging, even if it were 100% descriptively accurate, is still designed to be an insult. Moreover its not descriptively accurate. You can do mental and semantical gymnastics to make it fit, but thats only becaus your looking for it to fit, to get away with using the term "because its true".

    lets be honest, if you found a website that had a picture of you, with the caption OPTIMISER, it would be niether here not there. If on the other hand you saw your smiling face with the caption SANDBAGGER, well you would not be thrilled.

    if anything that definition, which is skill based, applies to permabasing. And I would not use that term, as I dont feel the desperate need to insult others or paint them in a negative light.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prutser View Post
    Sandbagging is not an insult.
    Are you using the term admiringly?

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by littledoctor View Post
    Are you using the term admiringly?
    I just use it to describe the behavior. Like Johnny sullivan, I do it myself too with some of my accounts. I have zero problems with it. Some people however are having a hissy fit every time some one describes the behavior of engineers.
    Last edited by Prutser; 6 Days Ago at 09:59 PM.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prutser View Post
    I just use it to describe the behavior. Like Johnny sullivan, I do it myself too with some of my accounts. I have zero problems with it. Some people however are having a hissy fit every time some one describes the behavior of engineers.
    No, people give deserved pushback when you try use insults. You are missaplying the definition of hissyfit, much like you missaply the term sandbagging. If you describe engineering as matchmaker specific optimisation, no one will give any pushback, you are not being intellectually honest in your analysis or argumentation.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vikingchief View Post
    No, people give deserved pushback when you try use insults. You are missaplying the definition of hissyfit, much like you missaply the term sandbagging. If you describe engineering as matchmaker specific optimisation, no one will give any pushback, you are not being intellectually honest in your analysis or argumentation.
    Mmmm weird, I do not have a problem with it at all and do not think of it as an insult at all. I think it is a cool term. In fact, in real war sandbagging is a very good parallel term for what engineers are doing too. You are making the enemy (remember: the matchmaker is the enemy of the engineer) believe you do not have certain skills which you do. Sounds pretty smart to me.

  9. #29
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    Sandbagging is a loose term used to describe hiding true abilities. Engineers are able to hide abilities from the MM and therefore are sandbaggers. Is it a derogatory term, yes it is but engineering does fit the definition. They may not be hiding anything from other players but are able to fool the MM and its the MM that needs to be fooled to gain any advantage. Just because its a derogatory term doesnt make it untrue.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clark11308 View Post
    Sandbagging is a loose term used to describe hiding true abilities. Engineers are able to hide abilities from the MM and therefore are sandbaggers. Is it a derogatory term, yes it is but engineering does fit the definition. They may not be hiding anything from other players but are able to fool the MM and its the MM that needs to be fooled to gain any advantage. Just because its a derogatory term doesnt make it untrue.
    Where does it say sandbagging is derogatory?

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