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Thread: My pro-engineering opinions

  1. #11
    Super Member TankSinatra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bandorf View Post
    I don't think "sandbagging" is the correct term to describe engineering. Engineers aren't misrepresenting their strengths/weights. They aren't pretending that they don't have ITs or EAs...they actually don't have them. Engineers tend to think those items are overvalued by the war matchmaker.

    Engineering is the practice of identifying the items that are overvalued or undervalued by the matchmaker. Engineers focus on placing and upgrading undervalued items, while avoiding the overvalued ones.

    Engineering is more akin to "Sabermetrics" than to "Sandbagging".

    See Also: Moneyball: The Art of Winning an Unfair Game
    True, sandbagging involves intentionally losing in order to line up weak opponents in a game that involves some kind of ELO system, like chess. Or lying about your win record, like in golf. So dropping trophies can fairly be called sandbagging, but engineering shouldn't be.

    This is all perpendicular to the questions of, to what extent is engineering a problem, what should be done, fix the MM, etc.
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  2. #12
    Super Member Deckard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bandorf View Post
    I don't think "sandbagging" is the correct term to describe engineering. Engineers aren't misrepresenting their strengths/weights. They aren't pretending that they don't have ITs or EAs...they actually don't have them. Engineers tend to think those items are overvalued by the war matchmaker.

    Engineering is the practice of identifying the items that are overvalued or undervalued by the matchmaker. Engineers focus on placing and upgrading undervalued items, while avoiding the overvalued ones.

    Engineering is more akin to "Sabermetrics" than to "Sandbagging".

    See Also: Moneyball: The Art of Winning an Unfair Game
    Tactical upgrading focused on offense I suppose could be called a skill. If then, the purpose of that tactical upgrading is to remove the element of being able to defeat an opponent 1:1 on skill, by overwhelming them with your offensive numbers-that is a tactical win. I suppose then if SC had this in mind when they designed the game then the game should have been called "Clash of Clan Construction Geniuses".

    But they didn't.

    I am always floored by the rationalization behind this obvious game mechanic exploit.

    The overall health of CoC's would have deteriorated if engineering had been allowed to progress unchecked. Too many regular players in day to day clans just felt cheated without really understanding the "why" behind the match. As it has been addressed and certainly being adjusted for in the MM I have no real issue with it anymore. We run into engineered clans from time to time but it is rarer that the match is an outright mismatch. So, engineer away I suppose but let's be honest about what it is.
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  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deckard View Post
    Tactical upgrading focused on offense I suppose could be called a skill. If then, the purpose of that tactical upgrading is to remove the element of being able to defeat an opponent 1:1 on skill, by overwhelming them with your offensive numbers-that is a tactical win. I suppose then if SC had this in mind when they designed the game then the game should have been called "Clash of Clan Construction Geniuses".

    But they didn't.

    I am always floored by the rationalization behind this obvious game mechanic exploit.

    The overall health of CoC's would have deteriorated if engineering had been allowed to progress unchecked. Too many regular players in day to day clans just felt cheated without really understanding the "why" behind the match. As it has been addressed and certainly being adjusted for in the MM I have no real issue with it anymore. We run into engineered clans from time to time but it is rarer that the match is an outright mismatch. So, engineer away I suppose but let's be honest about what it is.
    Similarities abound.

    The 'Moneyball' Effect: Are Sabermetrics Good for Sports?


  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by TankSinatra View Post
    True, sandbagging involves intentionally losing in order to line up weak opponents in a game that involves some kind of ELO system, like chess. Or lying about your win record, like in golf. So dropping trophies can fairly be called sandbagging, but engineering shouldn't be.
    FYI, sandbagging in golf doesn't involve intentionally losing. It involves using excess strokes to keep your handicap higher than it otherwise should be WHILE winning. The most effective way to sandbag in golf is to go out and shoot par or better, putting the match away with many holes to play and then suddenly "losing your swing" or shanking putts on the homestretch to keep that handicap up up up.

    Engineering is the intentional hiding of strength, just like sandbagging.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bandorf View Post
    I think you're missing the point of that article. That article is saying that the over use of statistical analysis takes away the fun factor from sports, and doesn't accurately capture character traits like leadership, chemistry, or work ethic. It's saying that fans shouldn't forget how much they loved a longtime player on their team who played hard and with success just because his BABIP and WAR #'s aren't great.

    I really don't think it's relevant to this discussion.
    Last edited by nerfedname; 6 Days Ago at 06:44 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nerfedname View Post
    FYI, sandbagging in golf doesn't involve intentionally losing. It involves using excess strokes to keep your handicap higher than it otherwise should be WHILE winning. The most effective way to sandbag in golf is to go out and shoot par or better, putting the match away with many holes to play and then suddenly "losing your swing" or shanking putts on the homestretch to keep that handicap up up up.
    How does that apply to CoC? Intentionally only 2-starring an opponent, but still winning the war affects nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by nerfedname View Post
    Engineering is the intentional hiding of strength, just like sandbagging.
    How are engineers "hiding" strength? Their strengths of their buildings, troops, and heroes are there for all to see.

    I would counter by arguing that engineering is the intentional avoidance of overvalued strength.

  6. #16
    Super Member TankSinatra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nerfedname View Post
    FYI, sandbagging in golf doesn't involve intentionally losing. It involves using excess strokes to keep your handicap higher than it otherwise should be WHILE winning. The most effective way to sandbag in golf is to go out and shoot par or better, putting the match away with many holes to play and then suddenly "losing your swing" or shanking putts on the homestretch to keep that handicap up up up.

    Engineering is the intentional hiding of strength, just like sandbagging.
    Thanks for the correction, I shouldn't have brought golf in since all I really know about it is that its a good thing to put on TV when I want to take a nap. But my point still stands, sandbagging is intentional underperformance. So intentionally losing to reset the win streak would be sandbagging, but I doubt many do that. Dropping trophies in multiplayer is sandbagging, but not many people get upset about it. Engineering is like a fighter choosing where to put on muscle, and how to cut in order to make weight. It's strategy.

    There's a valid discussion as to whether its good for the game, if engineers can coexist in the same pool as people that upgrade without regard to weights, what should SC do to the MM, etc. But the word "sandbagging" doesn't have any place in that discussion. I suspect people are using it not because its accurate, but because using the word "cheating" might get you moderated.
    Level 10 Adult War Clan METAMUCIL.
    And some of us are old enough that its not just a funny word...
    Metamucil keeps the red out of our logs. Small wars, great record, low pressure.
    48-2 last 50 wars as of 3/2017, whole record 362-79-8, best streak ended 3/7/17 at 29 wins.

  7. #17
    nerfedname's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bandorf View Post

    I would counter by arguing that engineering is the intentional avoidance of overvalued strength.
    Fair enough, the matchmaking algorithm does a poor job of properly evaluating the strength of an account in the absence of certain items.
    Last edited by nerfedname; 6 Days Ago at 07:09 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fette View Post
    Is 'jog' in AppStore or google play? I don't seem to find it.

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  8. #18
    nerfedname's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TankSinatra View Post
    Thanks for the correction, I shouldn't have brought golf in since all I really know about it is that its a good thing to put on TV when I want to take a nap. But my point still stands, sandbagging is intentional underperformance. So intentionally losing to reset the win streak would be sandbagging, but I doubt many do that. Dropping trophies in multiplayer is sandbagging, but not many people get upset about it. Engineering is like a fighter choosing where to put on muscle, and how to cut in order to make weight. It's strategy.

    There's a valid discussion as to whether its good for the game, if engineers can coexist in the same pool as people that upgrade without regard to weights, what should SC do to the MM, etc. But the word "sandbagging" doesn't have any place in that discussion. I suspect people are using it not because its accurate, but because using the word "cheating" might get you moderated.
    i don't call engineers cheaters because they're decidedly NOT cheating, they're playing within the rules of the game. Sandbagging isn't cheating either, but don't expect to make a lot of friends in your local golf league should one engage in the practice however...

    we have one notorious sandbagger in my work golf league, he wins the match play trophy almost every other year or so. We can't wait until he leaves the course after his round so we can all make fun of him and curse him behind his back...
    Last edited by nerfedname; 6 Days Ago at 07:20 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fette View Post
    Is 'jog' in AppStore or google play? I don't seem to find it.

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  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by nerfedname View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bandorf View Post
    I think you're missing the point of that article. That article is saying that the over use of statistical analysis takes away the fun factor from sports, and doesn't accurately capture character traits like leadership, chemistry, or work ethic. It's saying that fans shouldn't forget how much they loved a longtime player on their team who played hard and with success just because his BABIP and WAR #'s aren't great.

    I really don't think it's relevant to this discussion.
    Oh, it's not 1:1, but I think the parallels are clear.

    One camp views the practice of identifying and utilizing undervalued assets as an efficient way to build a stronger team, much to the chagrin of the other camp that views it as incompatible with some true spirit of the game.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoumilDude View Post
    Legal? Yes. Ethical? Probably not.
    Ethics is the perfect term for this situation, since an ethics code is an attempt to force others to conform to one's own sense of morality or desired behavior, often with ulterior motives.

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